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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #301  
Old 20 Oct 17, 13:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
I still think that's Eddy Merckx, am I an heretic now, or a maybe a true believer
Eddy certainly looks like Jesus, but Eddy was sometimes beaten in races, but Jesus is unbeaten and has been out front leading the biggest peloton on the planet for 2000 years..


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Below- me in my glory days as an amateur club cyclist, my personal best time for a 10 mile time trial was 25:17, I'm kool..
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  #302  
Old 21 Oct 17, 18:05
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Equating ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
I think that's because the mindset of Indians in general was "in tune" with the earth and with that Force that fills the universe, aka "God", so they were able to sense him better than most white men could-
"Am I only a nearby God? Can you hide? I fill heaven and earth" (Bible:Jeremiah 23:23/4)
... the earth, a Force that fills the universe, and the worship of "a" God is more of a modern interpretation. FN peoples today have no trouble worshiping a Christian God, alongside their traditional beliefs, but it was a long road.

For example, while there was indeed a belief in a "Great Spirit" i.e. "Manitou", there were also individual manitou's in all sorts of creatures i.e. bears, trees and objects i.e. rocks, the wind etc. FN peoples believed in the contents of dreams, more literal, than in interpretation. There was also a 3rd gender, of "two spirits", usually highly respected as Shamans and for their perceived wisdom, neither male or female, and yet both; males dressed and behaved as females in the main, but there was also a vise versa.

The Jesuits were forced to confront these religious and cultural forces in their efforts to convert FN peoples. They were able to form a synthesis between Manitou the Great Spirit and the Christian God that served to satisfy both in practical terms. The lesser spirits that inhabited lesser things, were dubbed "demons", and along with literal dreams were tougher to rein in. To influence the spiritual, the Jesuits employed a tangible; the FN cultural use of gifts, given and received. How important were gifts? The poorest man in any village or camp was usually the chief; the people supported him because his influence beyond the borders of the village accorded him the most gifts from those of other villages, which he gifted to his people, and they further gifted. In this light, the Jesuits awarded a rosary to those converted to Christianity; a gift of beads and a cross, a personal spiritual Wampum of sorts, was of enormous significance to an already spiritual people, especially the women. The first item on any list of supplies required from Montreal, and from France, was rosaries; there were never enough.

The 3rd gender was dubbed "Berdache" by the Jesuits (roughly an Arab term for a young male prostitute) and assigned a very negative connotation. Since many were Shamans and already viewed as an enemy of sorts in the battle for souls, it was like killing two birds, or "two spirits", with one stone. The practice remained among the unconverted; Crazy Horse, Chief of the Oglala Lakota at the Little Big Horn, had several Berdache wives, and there were female warrior/chiefs at the same battle. Christian FN people of "Two Spirits" have more recently made a public resurgence.
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  #303  
Old 24 Oct 17, 11:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
I wish there was a Religion section in AG so we could go into greater depth on the subject, how about it mods?
I'm against ALL Jesus-rejecters no matter what their religion, race or creed, including atheists..
I'll always be polite towards them but no way could I ever want to call them friend or invite them round for tea and biscuits.
Jesus said- "Love God, love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor" (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25:37-40)

so if anybody rejects that, I reject them, fair enough?
Anyway other religions haven't got Jesus the Son of God himself in them, so they're about as much use as a boxed set of rock n' roll videos without Elvis in there, right Elv?

"Uh-huh"
you would be ''unfriendly'' with them? isn't that what jesus doesn't want?
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  #304  
Old 24 Oct 17, 15:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
you would be ''unfriendly'' with them? isn't that what jesus doesn't want?
As a great prophet once said- "If you hang around with losers, you become a loser"- Donald Trump.
And Jesus has got his back..-
Jesus said- "And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matt 10:30)




Don in prophecy-


------------------------------------------------------------

"What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?...Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord, I will be a Father to you, and you shall be my sons and daughters" (2 Cor 6:14-18 )
"He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm" (Proverbs 13:20)

Jesus said:-"If any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them" (Mark 6:11)
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  #305  
Old 01 Nov 17, 19:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
...I was interested in the effects of missionaries/etc on the indigenous peoples of North, Central and South America
...did the missionaries/religion help?
...did any indigenous people want European religion?
...would they have been better off without the missionaries?
...I have almost no knowledge on the subject and was just curious after seeing the movie The Missionary.....as always it says ''based'' on a true stroy--but that is almost never the case
As with most things in history, movies, novels and even serious academic articles will focus upon the story and the time of the story.

"Missionary" stories about the activities in America, during the late 15th till the mid 18th centuries, are mostly told as isolated from the "religious" or sectarian conflicts which began before, and evolved alongside them, in the old world.

The beastly interactions between "Christians" and Semites of both Hebrew and Islamic cultures, and between "Christians" of Eastern, Roman and the various reformed associations, were only repeated in America: the conflicts were imported.
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  #306  
Old 03 Nov 17, 01:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
...I was interested in the effects of missionaries/etc on the indigenous peoples of North, Central and South America
...did the missionaries/religion help?
...did any indigenous people want European religion?
...would they have been better off without the missionaries?
...I have almost no knowledge on the subject and was just curious after seeing the movie The Missionary.....as always it says ''based'' on a true stroy--but that is almost never the case
Religion can help because it can bind people together and can motivate us as well. While missionaries can become the prophets to share the good news of the gospels.
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  #307  
Old 04 Nov 17, 06:36
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Here's an old joke-
Missionaries tell a remote jungle tribe "Your gods don't exist", so the tribe bungs them in their cookpot.
At that moment a nearby volcano blows its top so the missionaries yell-"Look, we were wrong! Your gods are angry because you want to eat us!"..
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  #308  
Old 04 Nov 17, 10:18
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For Poor Old Spike.
From the movie "la victoire en chantant " 1976 ,French movie portraying the work of the Jesuits in French Africa.
Even if you don't understand French ,worth watching this 2.44 excerpt.Since you are a bike guy . Brilliant.

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  #309  
Old 04 Nov 17, 11:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebfrench76 View Post
For Poor Old Spike.
From the movie "la victoire en chantant " 1976 ,French movie portraying the work of the Jesuits in French Africa.
Even if you don't understand French ,worth watching this 2.44 excerpt.Since you are a bike guy . Brilliant.


Les Bicyclettes de Gabon

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  #310  
Old 04 Nov 17, 18:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetglaze View Post
Religion can help because it can bind people together and can motivate us as well. While missionaries can become the prophets to share the good news of the gospels.

Yes..




El Cid kicks the muslims out of Spain..



European crusaders..
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  #311  
Old 05 Nov 17, 12:34
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Over the course of history, more harm, violence and misery has been caused by religion that by any army ever fielded.

When speaking of missionaries, it is well to remember the rape and enslavement of the New World in the name of the Catholic Church.
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  #312  
Old 05 Nov 17, 17:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Over the course of history, more harm, violence and misery has been caused by religion that by any army ever fielded.

When speaking of missionaries, it is well to remember the rape and enslavement of the New World in the name of the Catholic Church.
Regardless of our opinions our ancestors hail from the Catholic Church. And if your or any other Americans family is part or in any way Protestant even they most likely have Catholic ancestors.



Some white European people committed crimes against various native populations of the Americas. These white Christians who did commit crimes were in large numbers more like the mafia or ISIL. How many times have we heard the stories in America of a white man beating his wife, blacks do it to but to this threads point even today Cross wearing white Christian men have committed random crimes like robbery or worse assaults on people. The point here is that criminals of the past and present were and largely are motivated by financial gain/violent tendency rather then religions, this was the case wrt all three Abrahamic religious groups of the middle ages each group had its criminals and honorable people.

In the modern times there have been millions of Atheists who have committed violent crimes, well what good has disliking religion or complaining about religion got for violent criminal Atheists? The answer is a jail sentence and the fact is that a non religious life(then again some say Atheism is a belief system) is prone to crime just as a religious life is. Atheists and Theists can not hold a moral high ground over each other because both groups include peaceful people and criminals.

Just because someone wears a cross does not mean their actions are agreed with by all fellow Christians, thats the important point and its not about "in the name of the Catholic Church". Not all lay Catholics agree on certain points, and not all Popes of the Church have been the same, Pope Francis is very liberal for example compared to the some but not all of the Popes of the middle ages.

I for one would like to see more Catholic parades in my area which is highly Irish and Italian. In the Buffalo area and all over the US there are Catholic celebrations where Catholic flags and all types of Catholic symbols are present. There are Polish, German, Irish and Italian festivals centered on Catholicism all over the USA throughout the year. As for history, Andrew Jackson might have been a Catholic he certainly admired the Church. It was on the backs of Catholics and Protestants that America was formed, the American revolution and US Civil war saw Irish and Scottish Catholics fighting for the country. There is a local shipyard with some war monuments and one of them is to Irish Catholics whom fought for the Union during the US civil war.
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  #313  
Old 05 Nov 17, 19:39
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[QUOTE=Marmat;3415349]... Crazy Horse, Chief of the Oglala Lakota at the Little Big Horn, had several Berdache wives, and there were female warrior/chiefs at the same battle. [QUOTE]

Agree with most of your post, have read quite a bit on Crazy Horse and these facts have evaded me. I'd like to read more. Can you source these for me?
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  #314  
Old 05 Nov 17, 20:06
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Sure Holly, ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by holly6 View Post
... Crazy Horse, Chief of the Oglala Lakota at the Little Big Horn, had several Berdache wives, and there were female warrior/chiefs at the same battle.

Agree with most of your post, have read quite a bit on Crazy Horse and these facts have evaded me. I'd like to read more. Can you source these for me?
... that snippet comes from "The Encyclopedia of the Great Plains Indians", by David J. Wishart. You'll find it under the entry for "Berdache".
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  #315  
Old 06 Nov 17, 06:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Over the course of history, more harm, violence and misery has been caused by religion that by any army ever fielded.
When speaking of missionaries, it is well to remember the rape and enslavement of the New World in the name of the Catholic Church.
Yes, terrible, terrible...

https://youtu.be/7WJXHY2OXGE
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