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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #61  
Old 13 Sep 17, 15:51
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Originally Posted by Massena View Post
Could you please show a reference that the Founders admired the Moslem conquerers in the Middle East and Africa?

Further, the idea that Locke's ideas 'resembled Islamic teachings' is interesting. Perhaps you could give examples?

Locke was a supporter of the social contract, the consent of the governed, the state of nature; and the natural rights of life, liberty and property. He was one of the philosophers that certainly did influence the Founders, but he was not the only one. The ideas of Montesquieu, Rosseau, and other of the philosophes certainly influenced the Founders, as did a look back to ancient Rome.

The Founders were children of the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason, and they looked to their philosophical antecedents for examples on how to govern and to justify rebelling against Great Britain.
The fiqh council site is the one discussing Locke and Islam. Here are dozens of links showing a reported admiration the founders had for Islam.



https://www.google.com/search?newwin...k1.Tuz3cockgNc

I can not gauge your tone but even if your a critic of Islam so be it to each their own. Also yes I understand the Founders were motivated by numerous sources. I could understand Americans who view Islam and Muslims as all being big bearded people who view Islam as a conquering religion...that false view that Muslim men and women are all conservative in dress and only want to conquer others was propagated by British Missionaries in Afghanistan during the great game years.. See the British Gov and Jihad written by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in 1900 which shows how Muslim and Christian preachers alike hyped up a false view of Jihad that allows for Muslims to attack civilians and other such acts.

The founders were motivated by numerous religions including the three religions of Abraham, the Persian and Roman Empires. Individuals such as Cyrus the Great and Henry the II for example. Henry II contributed greatly to English Common law which influenced the law system of the US.


I dont see early Muslims as being religiously conservative nor did Persian artists of the middle ages see Islam as a conquering or violent religion. What are your thoughts on Islam though? Keep in mind I also admire Martin Luther as well as Joseph Smith two figures celebrated tremendously in the USA. The Mormon Brigham Young had over 50 wives and has a major University named after him in our country.
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  #62  
Old 13 Sep 17, 17:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
The fiqh council site is the one discussing Locke and Islam. Here are dozens of links showing a reported admiration the founders had for Islam...

I can not gauge your tone but even if your a critic of Islam so be it to each their own. Also yes I understand the Founders were motivated by numerous sources. I could understand Americans who view Islam and Muslims as all being big bearded people who view Islam as a conquering religion...that false view that Muslim men and women are all conservative in dress and only want to conquer others was propagated by British Missionaries in Afghanistan during the great game years.. See the British Gov and Jihad written by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in 1900 which shows how Muslim and Christian preachers alike hyped up a false view of Jihad that allows for Muslims to attack civilians and other such acts.

The founders were motivated by numerous religions including the three religions of Abraham, the Persian and Roman Empires. Individuals such as Cyrus the Great and Henry the II for example. Henry II contributed greatly to English Common law which influenced the law system of the US.


I dont see early Muslims as being religiously conservative nor did Persian artists of the middle ages see Islam as a conquering or violent religion. What are your thoughts on Islam though? Keep in mind I also admire Martin Luther as well as Joseph Smith two figures celebrated tremendously in the USA. The Mormon Brigham Young had over 50 wives and has a major University named after him in our country.
You didn't answer the two questions put to you.

I said nothing, nor did I ask a question, regarding the respect for any religion by the Founders. That would be inherent in the Constitution when written with the addition of the Bill of Rights.

The nature of my questions was regarding an unfortunate practice today of attributing 'things' to the Founders that are inaccurate. That is how your posting struck me. And I'm not talking about who you admire, but the questions were about the philosophes and the Founders.

The google information you referenced said little or nothing regarding my questions. And the one that referenced Jefferson and the Constitution I found curious, as Jefferson had nothing to do with the writing and passage of the Constitution as he was ambassador to France at the time. He was opposed to it, however, a de facto anti-Federalist.
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  #63  
Old 13 Sep 17, 18:09
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Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
The relations between the various tribes of the Americas and the various European powers varied over the years. To suggest the Tribes always faces oppression or were always the oppressors themselves would be untrue....if the Tribes always faced oppression from the various Europeans there would be no Tribes whatsoever left in the Americas. To often in these types of discussion either the various tribes or various European powers are painted with a broad brush. I will sit down and listen to what any European or Tribesman has to say, but I can not agree with those who blanket criticize all of the Tribes of the Americans or all European powers that came into contact with the various tribes of the Americas.

Here is the balanced scholarly approach to relations between the various European powers and various tribes of the Americas

Sometimes friendly, sometimes hostile, the Eastern tribes were no longer strangers to the Europeans.

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/outlines/h...-relations.php
I agree that's the best post I've seen from you
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  #64  
Old 13 Sep 17, 22:43
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Originally Posted by Massena View Post
You didn't answer the two questions put to you.

I said nothing, nor did I ask a question, regarding the respect for any religion by the Founders. That would be inherent in the Constitution when written with the addition of the Bill of Rights.

The nature of my questions was regarding an unfortunate practice today of attributing 'things' to the Founders that are inaccurate. That is how your posting struck me. And I'm not talking about who you admire, but the questions were about the philosophes and the Founders.

The google information you referenced said little or nothing regarding my questions. And the one that referenced Jefferson and the Constitution I found curious, as Jefferson had nothing to do with the writing and passage of the Constitution as he was ambassador to France at the time. He was opposed to it, however, a de facto anti-Federalist.
Yes you did not comment on how you thought of Islam, but you referred to Islam as a conquering religion, now I already said I dont mind any criticisims of any of the three religions of Abraham, I asked the question to you because you use the word Moslem not Muslim, and you made the conqueror comment, whether you want to address the question matter not to me, I was merely curious.

You can say I did not answer the questions that you posed to me, but I answered the questions. The fiqh council site provides an argument that the founders were influenced by Islam. John Locke was influenced by Islam, and the founders were influenced by Locke. Thomas Jefferson was a founder and indeed I provided links that reported that Jefferson was influenced by Islam.

John Locke’s Islamic connection could possibly be traced back to his Socinian association. H. J. McLachlan and John Marshall have clearly proved that John Locke was an outright Socinian. Socinianism was a system of Christian doctrine named for Fausto Sozzini (Latin: Faustus Socinus), which was developed among the Polish Brethren in the Minor Reformed Church of Poland during the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. Martin Mulsow observes,

Socinianism…or, broader: anti-trinitarianiism was often paralleled to Islam: both the Christian heresy and the Muslim religion reject the doctrine of the Trinity and regard Jesus only as a prophet, not as a god. There are indeed numerous historical connections between both currents. From Michael Servetus onward, the Qur’ān and islamic writings had an impact on the emerging Socinian critique. Antitrinitarians tried to establish a historical genealogy from early (Ebionite) Christianity through Islam (which preserved the true monotheistic idea) to the present.”


...

Therefore, the American dream of “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” is a summarized version of the five objectives of Islamic Shari’ah highlighted by Ibn Tufail and incorporated by John Locke in his Treatises. There is no inherent conflict between the American dream and principles of the Islamic Shari’ah. Americans need not fear Islam or Islamic Shari’ah and Muslims should not hate, despise, or doubt the American dream. In its purest sense, it reflects their religious ideals and a manifestation of their lost legacy.

http://www.fiqhcouncil.org/node/18

John Locke (August 1632 – 28 October 1704), was accused of being a “Moslim” by his adversaries such as John Edwards (1637–1716), an ordained Deacon and English Calvinistic divine, because his religious beliefs and political outlook closely resembled the Islamic teachings. Locke argued in his “Reasonableness of Christianity” (1695) that Jesus was neither God nor divine but just a Messiah. He advocated that the Church should reject its hierarchical structure and authority, abandon its irrational beliefs such as Trinity and superstitious theology including beliefs in mysteries and miracles, forfeit its creed and sacraments, its pagan liturgy, customs and traditions in favor of one requirement for membership and salvation- to acknowledge and believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, the King of righteous believers. It is plain, argued Locke, “that the gospel was writ to induce men into a belief of this proposition, “That Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah;” which if they believed, they should have life.” He further argued that “all that was to be believed for justification, was no more but this single proposition, that “Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ, or the Messiah.”

http://www.fiqhcouncil.org/node/2

I find the founders at least part of them were influenced by the greatness of Islam. Early Muslims fought alongside Jews and Christians against their common enemy. It is a breath of fresh air to hear Muslims in the Iraqi military talking about how early Muslims were into equality among man and thats maybe why some of the founders admired Islam. That is not unfortunate that I am connecting Islam and Catholics like Henry II to the founders... its a viewpoint backed by numerous sources and I will continue to provide this view no matter what is said in response.
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  #65  
Old 13 Sep 17, 23:36
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Originally Posted by nastle View Post
I agree that's the best post I've seen from you
Thank you my friend
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  #66  
Old 14 Sep 17, 01:09
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I agree that's the best post I've seen from you
What about the 3178 remaining ?
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  #67  
Old 14 Sep 17, 01:22
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What about the 3178 remaining ?
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  #68  
Old 14 Sep 17, 08:49
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What about the 3178 remaining ?
We disagree on interpretation of orthodoxy Islam that's obvious but I'm not going to criticize him when he says things that makes total sense.
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Old 15 Sep 17, 16:55
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Just my 2 cents but I'm sure that when the Founding Fathers spoke of "freedom of religion" they didn't mean letting religions into the country who hate our guts..

[Quran 9.123]- "O you who believe! fight those of the infidels who are near to you and let them find in you hardness"
[Quran 5.51]- "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends"

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Old 15 Sep 17, 21:40
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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
Just my 2 cents but I'm sure that when the Founding Fathers spoke of "freedom of religion" they didn't mean letting religions into the country who hate our guts..

[Quran 9.123]- "O you who believe! fight those of the infidels who are near to you and let them find in you hardness"
[Quran 5.51]- "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends"

The Jews and Christians...wrt this,

Christians killed 6 million Jews in the holocaust. The 20th century was a bad time for Jewish Christian relations, The middle ages otoh was much better for all three groups.
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Old 16 Sep 17, 07:28
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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
Just my 2 cents but I'm sure that when the Founding Fathers spoke of "freedom of religion" they didn't mean letting religions into the country who hate our guts..

[Quran 9.123]- "O you who believe! fight those of the infidels who are near to you and let them find in you hardness"
[Quran 5.51]- "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends"

Good lord, was that the most flattering picture of Middle Eastern gentlemen you could find?

If Christianity and Islam had existed when the Old Testament was being written, there might have been plenty of inflammatory texts to cherrypick.

As it is, there are any number of injunctions and laws in the OT that neither sensible Jews or Christians would want to be judged by, although today we can find Christian fundamentalists as irrational as their Muslim equivalents.

And the NT is not exactly all beads and lentils- "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."
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Old 16 Sep 17, 09:44
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Then Moses assembled all the congregation of the sons of Israel, and said to them, "These are the things that the LORD has commanded you to do: 2"For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. 3"You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day."…

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Old 16 Sep 17, 10:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
The Jews and Christians...wrt this,

Christians killed 6 million Jews in the holocaust. The 20th century was a bad time for Jewish Christian relations, The middle ages otoh was much better for all three groups.
I sincerely doubt that Nazis can be classed as Christians, not only were they mass murderers, they were against the Christian religions (yes, there are more than one and it isn't monolithic), they vigorously persecuted Christian clergy, many of whom ended up in either concentration or death camps.

And just how were the middle ages 'much better for all three groups'?
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Old 16 Sep 17, 10:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
Yes you did not comment on how you thought of Islam, but you referred to Islam as a conquering religion, now I already said I dont mind any criticisims of any of the three religions of Abraham, I asked the question to you because you use the word Moslem not Muslim, and you made the conqueror comment, whether you want to address the question matter not to me, I was merely curious.

You can say I did not answer the questions that you posed to me, but I answered the questions. The fiqh council site provides an argument that the founders were influenced by Islam. John Locke was influenced by Islam, and the founders were influenced by Locke. Thomas Jefferson was a founder and indeed I provided links that reported that Jefferson was influenced by Islam.

John Locke’s Islamic connection could possibly be traced back to his Socinian association. H. J. McLachlan and John Marshall have clearly proved that John Locke was an outright Socinian. Socinianism was a system of Christian doctrine named for Fausto Sozzini (Latin: Faustus Socinus), which was developed among the Polish Brethren in the Minor Reformed Church of Poland during the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. Martin Mulsow observes,

Socinianism…or, broader: anti-trinitarianiism was often paralleled to Islam: both the Christian heresy and the Muslim religion reject the doctrine of the Trinity and regard Jesus only as a prophet, not as a god. There are indeed numerous historical connections between both currents. From Michael Servetus onward, the Qur’ān and islamic writings had an impact on the emerging Socinian critique. Antitrinitarians tried to establish a historical genealogy from early (Ebionite) Christianity through Islam (which preserved the true monotheistic idea) to the present.”


...

Therefore, the American dream of “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” is a summarized version of the five objectives of Islamic Shari’ah highlighted by Ibn Tufail and incorporated by John Locke in his Treatises. There is no inherent conflict between the American dream and principles of the Islamic Shari’ah. Americans need not fear Islam or Islamic Shari’ah and Muslims should not hate, despise, or doubt the American dream. In its purest sense, it reflects their religious ideals and a manifestation of their lost legacy.

http://www.fiqhcouncil.org/node/18

John Locke (August 1632 – 28 October 1704), was accused of being a “Moslim” by his adversaries such as John Edwards (1637–1716), an ordained Deacon and English Calvinistic divine, because his religious beliefs and political outlook closely resembled the Islamic teachings. Locke argued in his “Reasonableness of Christianity” (1695) that Jesus was neither God nor divine but just a Messiah. He advocated that the Church should reject its hierarchical structure and authority, abandon its irrational beliefs such as Trinity and superstitious theology including beliefs in mysteries and miracles, forfeit its creed and sacraments, its pagan liturgy, customs and traditions in favor of one requirement for membership and salvation- to acknowledge and believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, the King of righteous believers. It is plain, argued Locke, “that the gospel was writ to induce men into a belief of this proposition, “That Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah;” which if they believed, they should have life.” He further argued that “all that was to be believed for justification, was no more but this single proposition, that “Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ, or the Messiah.”

http://www.fiqhcouncil.org/node/2

I find the founders at least part of them were influenced by the greatness of Islam. Early Muslims fought alongside Jews and Christians against their common enemy. It is a breath of fresh air to hear Muslims in the Iraqi military talking about how early Muslims were into equality among man and thats maybe why some of the founders admired Islam. That is not unfortunate that I am connecting Islam and Catholics like Henry II to the founders... its a viewpoint backed by numerous sources and I will continue to provide this view no matter what is said in response.
Whether or not you 'continue to provide this view' is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether or not 'this view' is accurate.

Perhaps this will help somewhat as a start:

Socinianism definition:

'Socinianism is a heresy concerning the nature of God. It is derived from two brothers of the surname Sozinni who lived in the 1500's in Poland.'

ttps://carm.org/socinianism

What does this have to do with the Enlightenment, the Founders, the Age of Reason, and Islam?

Further, what someone is accused of may or may not be accurate (as witness a myriad of postings and threads on this site).

Islam was started by Mohammed as a religion to unite Arab tribes into a war of conquest. Mohammed himself was both a merchant and a soldier and his wars of conquest ranged into the middle east and across North Africa. This is in great contrast to Christianity which was begun as a religion of peace.

And Christianity was violently opposed by Islam as witness the centuries of wars waged against the Eastern Roman Empire and anyone else who was not Moslem. Persia was conquered by Islam after it was badly defeated and weakened by the Eastern Romans.

The Crusades began as a request by the Eastern Roman Emperor to fight against the continued encroachment of Islam, by either Arabs or Turks.

I do not see by any reasonable or measureable historical method that Islam had any influence at all on the Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, or the Founders of the United States, not even by a lengthy stretch.
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We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive to seek to find and not to yield.
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Old 16 Sep 17, 10:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
Just my 2 cents but I'm sure that when the Founding Fathers spoke of "freedom of religion" they didn't mean letting religions into the country who hate our guts..

[Quran 9.123]- "O you who believe! fight those of the infidels who are near to you and let them find in you hardness"
[Quran 5.51]- "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends"

agree...this is logical and cannot be denied
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