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  #361  
Old 04 Oct 17, 17:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystikeye View Post
I don't know how anyone can suggest a solution to what happened in Vegas since no one knows what the heck happened yet. Out of all the slayings over the years this one so far has got to be the weirdest. Nobody knows jack diddley about him and what little is known came from his brother. I wouldn't trust that info with a 10 foot pole.
Psycopatchs evolve too; since giving any info on what you are doing and why increases chances of getting caught(NSA etc) it stands to "reason" that there wont be any info.
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  #362  
Old 04 Oct 17, 17:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cambronnne View Post
Agreed.
I don't know if there is a reasonable way to address such devices, but it would be a more reasonable reaction to this than most of the other posturing that I have seen.
I think it is something that the ATF could possibly regulate without any new laws on the books. They do have some leeway with respect to definitions. If we did need to amend the current laws, this is the language that I would consider using:

Amendment to definition:

Any device, internal or external, which is designed to and/or allows the user of a semi-automatic firearm, having depressed the trigger initially, to fire continuously without the operator having to perform any further action than continuing to apply the same pressure.

To briefly explain the principle behind a bump stock:

Recoil impulse drives the weapon, typically including the trigger, inside the stock mechanism. When the spring in the stock drives the weapon forward, the semi-automatic action, which has cycled and is back in battery, drives against the firer's finger. The operator's finger then actually depresses the trigger, even though the operator has taken no additional action to make such depression occur.

Functionally, IMHO, I've always thought that bump stocks were a 'cheat' skirting the far fringes of the law. In essence, when I think about a bump stock I see the operator's tensed finger as a mere part within a recoil-operated automatic system. Which is why I'm cool with eliminating them, it's not adding a law, it's cutting into specific loopholes that are abused to skirt the spirit of the law while remaining within the letter. The only reason bump stocks are legal now is that the operator's finger is considered to be operating the trigger. Were you to take a bump stock and modify it so that you could flip a lever to fire the first shot, all subsequent cycles the trigger striking the lever, it would be illegal as it would be an automatic weapon. I argue that using your finger as an integral part of an automatic weapon system by it's mere presence, not it's actual actions, is an automatic weapon and therefore a Class III device.
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  #363  
Old 04 Oct 17, 18:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
I think it is something that the ATF could possibly regulate without any new laws on the books. They do have some leeway with respect to definitions. If we did need to amend the current laws, this is the language that I would consider using:

Amendment to definition:

Any device, internal or external, which is designed to and/or allows the user of a semi-automatic firearm, having depressed the trigger initially, to fire continuously without the operator having to perform any further action than continuing to apply the same pressure.

To briefly explain the principle behind a bump stock:

Recoil impulse drives the weapon, typically including the trigger, inside the stock mechanism. When the spring in the stock drives the weapon forward, the semi-automatic action, which has cycled and is back in battery, drives against the firer's finger. The operator's finger then actually depresses the trigger, even though the operator has taken no additional action to make such depression occur.

Functionally, IMHO, I've always thought that bump stocks were a 'cheat' skirting the far fringes of the law. In essence, when I think about a bump stock I see the operator's tensed finger as a mere part within a recoil-operated automatic system. Which is why I'm cool with eliminating them, it's not adding a law, it's cutting into specific loopholes that are abused to skirt the spirit of the law while remaining within the letter. The only reason bump stocks are legal now is that the operator's finger is considered to be operating the trigger. Were you to take a bump stock and modify it so that you could flip a lever to fire the first shot, all subsequent cycles the trigger striking the lever, it would be illegal as it would be an automatic weapon. I argue that using your finger as an integral part of an automatic weapon system by it's mere presence, not it's actual actions, is an automatic weapon and therefore a Class III device.


I can't rep you again yet as I learned from trying to rep you in the other thread.
Nevertheless, interesting and informative. Thank you
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  #364  
Old 04 Oct 17, 18:37
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I think bump fire can be accomplished much better by controlled rapid fire using a semi-automatic. That device probably attributed to fewer deaths because it is inaccurate, had the gunman fired at a reasonable rapid-fire rate aiming center of mass at the crowd he would have inflicted more casualties. Banning a simple device for the immature novice shooter will just make terrorists better at killing. In short, you want them to have silly weapons and devices otherwise they'll buy the good stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
I think it is something that the ATF could possibly regulate without any new laws on the books. They do have some leeway with respect to definitions. If we did need to amend the current laws, this is the language that I would consider using:

Amendment to definition:

Any device, internal or external, which is designed to and/or allows the user of a semi-automatic firearm, having depressed the trigger initially, to fire continuously without the operator having to perform any further action than continuing to apply the same pressure.

To briefly explain the principle behind a bump stock:

Recoil impulse drives the weapon, typically including the trigger, inside the stock mechanism. When the spring in the stock drives the weapon forward, the semi-automatic action, which has cycled and is back in battery, drives against the firer's finger. The operator's finger then actually depresses the trigger, even though the operator has taken no additional action to make such depression occur.

Functionally, IMHO, I've always thought that bump stocks were a 'cheat' skirting the far fringes of the law. In essence, when I think about a bump stock I see the operator's tensed finger as a mere part within a recoil-operated automatic system. Which is why I'm cool with eliminating them, it's not adding a law, it's cutting into specific loopholes that are abused to skirt the spirit of the law while remaining within the letter. The only reason bump stocks are legal now is that the operator's finger is considered to be operating the trigger. Were you to take a bump stock and modify it so that you could flip a lever to fire the first shot, all subsequent cycles the trigger striking the lever, it would be illegal as it would be an automatic weapon. I argue that using your finger as an integral part of an automatic weapon system by it's mere presence, not it's actual actions, is an automatic weapon and therefore a Class III device.
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  #365  
Old 04 Oct 17, 18:48
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While I can see that, it's still a method used to spray and pray. It's actually not an uncommon thing for gangbangers to use them when they can't get actual automatic weapons. I think they're hilarious and I wouldn't own one. But then some of us are professionals and understand weapons handling and how much these things make us cringe.

Fortunately for the thousands, he wasn't a professional.
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  #366  
Old 04 Oct 17, 18:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
Arm everyone, a polite society is an armed society.
But not in this case,obviously.
It seems that the murderer (surely his name isn't worth anybody's memory) firing from a concealed position,on high, comprehensively disproved the theory that if everybody carries a gun then everybody is safer.
When is it going to happen again ?
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  #367  
Old 04 Oct 17, 19:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
Nothing ironic about it, you appear to be race baiting.
Call it what you will, but clearly African-Americans constitute by far the greatest share of victims of illegal weapons. I don't think it's even close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
Quote:
First, the narrative of the NRA as some sort of crypto-racist organization is simply false. In the first place, the NRA is a single-issue organization, which is how Harry Reid is able to obtain a [/I]“B” rating and get campaign cash from them, despite voting as a party-line Democrat on virtually every non-gun-related issue. More to the point, the NRA has historically opposed laws that were virtually tailor made to deny African-Americans the right to keep and bear arms.


At one time the NRA was an organization the promoted training for the safe use of firearms. It's political activism is a relatively recent development.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
Quote:
Many gun control laws to this day stem from the KKK's
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
Quote:
fear of armed and independent minorities. The Rosewood Massacre in 1923 – a bloodbath led by a white mob that resulted in the destruction of an entire black community in Florida – was a clear example of how an armed black people could prevent future KKK raids.
Yet relative to Caucasians, African-Americans are rather unarmed. In a place like New York City, the sheer expense and difficulty of obtaining a CCW is enough to keep many African-Americans from applying. Add to that the clearly discriminatory way in which law is both formulated and enforced -- the so-called "War on Drugs" is probably the most obvious example -- and many blacks who'd be interested in legally owning a weapon can't due to a disqualifying criminal record. Hence thousands of blacks are rendered defenseless against hardened criminals who don't consider legal means of weapons possession, but think nothing of illegal means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
Quote:
Second, the uptick in gun ownership and firearms acceptability in the black community isn’t an anomaly, but a reconnection with a deeper past stretching back to Reconstruction. The right to keep and carry arms was even mentioned in the infamous Supreme Court case of Scott v. Sandford, where the enslaved Dred Scott sued for his freedom. He lost that fight, but the words from that courtroom live on to this day.
That stands to reason: "a rising tide lifts all boats." African-Americans have prospered, as have all Americans. Perhaps not to the same degree, but clearly African-Americans are better off today -- in absolute terms -- than they were forty or more years ago. Consequently, they're buying homes, and they're acquiring firearms. No surprises there. For the poor in the inner-cities, however, both the expense and difficulty associated with legal possession is inhibiting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
Did the Mulford Act stop blacks from open carry in California or did it stop all citizens from open carry?
It stopped anyone who was interesting in "copwatching," which is something to which police officers across all generational and racial line are unreasonably sensitive.



The Mulford Act was expressly drafted and passed in response to the Black Panthers' "copwatching" efforts and their entry into the California legislature while armed. It was the political class' response to the public uproar over the Black Panthers' actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karri View Post
Half of this forums is ravings about immigrants and moslems and how they are the end of the world, and what steps must be taken to ensure it doesn't happen....
You were expecting consistency. Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
At last, something we can agree on.

I was starting to wonder if that would ever happen...
It's never happened?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
It is even more ancient than you might know; cheap firearms were banned in the Jim Crow south to keep affordable guns out of Black hands, and I doubt that those neo-Confederates in the Carolinas were very concerned about Black v. Black violence back then... either.
Concerned about black-on-black: they might have encouraged it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
And the USA is far from the only nation to have ever had ethnically targeted anti-gun laws.
I know of one country for sure that did so, but in the interests of not invoking Godwin's Law I'll just keep that knowledge to myself and whistle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
Chicago and New York, the places where it is hardest and most expensive for the average law-abiding Joe or Jane to have a gun are ALSO the places where the average Joe is most likely to be shot.
And if you think that's a coincidence, you need a check-up from the neck up.
Not by a long shot. When NYC's murders were topping 1,000/yr the city fathers toughened gun laws -- and murders doubled. Now the city fathers have smartened up: they're pricing all the real estate too high for African-Americans to afford. NYC is fast becoming like Georgetown, San Francisco, Portland or New Haven: Douchebagville -- nothing but gluten-free, latte-sippin', semi-transgendered, college-educated, trust fund, whites.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
Criminals don't obey gun laws.
Period.
Why should they? If they did, they wouldn't be criminals. They rely on law-abiding citizens to obey the law: makes preying upon them easier.
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  #368  
Old 04 Oct 17, 19:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
While I can see that, it's still a method used to spray and pray. It's actually not an uncommon thing for gangbangers to use them when they can't get actual automatic weapons. I think they're hilarious and I wouldn't own one. But then some of us are professionals and understand weapons handling and how much these things make us cringe.

Fortunately for the thousands, he wasn't a professional.
One thought. Wasn’t he firing at a range of c400m. Surely you have to be reasonably proficient to hit a target at that range?
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  #369  
Old 04 Oct 17, 19:43
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He was aiming at a concert audience. Even misses could bounce off the pavement and hit people.

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  #370  
Old 04 Oct 17, 19:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
One thought. Wasn’t he firing at a range of c400m. Surely you have to be reasonably proficient to hit a target at that range?
Not if your target is a mass of people filling a field and you are firing what is effectively a machine gun. What he appears to have been proficient at is selecting the target in the fist place. This doesn't appear to have been a spur of the moment attack but something planned and possibly with some reconnoitering. One wonders how long before was his booking of the hotel room was and if he specified the room or at least the floor and the side of the hotel..
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Old 04 Oct 17, 20:02
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A weapon is just that. It is a tool used by a person to deal with a problem. If a weapon is used inappropriately, it is the persons fault, not the tool.

That said, could Stephen Paddock have killed so many people, never mind damaged over 500, with a baseball bat, knife or even a Katana. The answer is no. He might have got a couple with a bat, maybe a dozen before overwhelmed.

The problem with citizens with guns is the same as tank warfare. The side that shoots first usually wins, regardless of armour or firepower. The 'civilian' side that shoots first are almost always the bad guys. It wouldn't matter how many guns the victim has, the bad guys will usually kill them first.
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  #372  
Old 04 Oct 17, 20:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
Meanwhile you're listening to your favorite flavor.

R Maddow is damn good...better then probably every conservative commentator out their save Will Cain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
We've had plenty of that here, too: "orphanages," "reform schools," "insane asylums," "sanitaria," "psychiatric hospitals," they'd all been dens of wickedness for a long time. Starting in the late 1960s-early 1970s, such the state began closing those institutions. The blowback from the Willowbrook controversies prompted the State of New York to seek foster care and/or out-patient treatment wherever possible, rather than to institutionalize people.

What I'm talking about in Britain today is a conspiracy involving the civil authorities every bit as deep and as devious as anything that the Roman Catholic Church did. The whitewash that the Crown Prosecution Service did on its handling of Jimmy Saville complaints can be charitably characterized as comedy. In case after case after case, throughout the 1970s, '80s, and '90s, British civil authorities regularly poo-poo'ed complaints of sexual abuse of minors. And the treatment that Jamie Bulger's murderers got still makes the blood boil. I'd lay good money that the cnt psychologist who judged their odds of reoffending as "trivial" kept her job at the Home Office for years and years -- even after the perps reoffended. On that basis, how can any parent in the UK consider the government friendly, interested in the welfare of his children? Upon what evidence can such an opinion be based?
The Catholic Church has always stood up for what is right. I dont see anything wrong with you and your views are peaceful. But I will say if anything its part of the 1984 mindset to up and agree with the line that Jews control the banks, Muslims want to blow us up, Catholic Priests are molesters or that blacks steal tvs, or that Irish are drunk the Italians are mobsters etc.

The UK and USA are among the most free societies in the world. So is Ireland and Italy for that matter. Israel and Saudi otoh should be the worlds focus for their intolerant policies. That is not to take away from the issues facing the USA like so called race issues, and how transsexuals and Scientologists are the most discriminated group in America by far and wide. In comparing America and England to these self proclaimed free countries like Saudi And Israel I see that America and England are 100X better then Israel and Saudi. And Jimmy Saville, he is just one of a few individuals whom " got away with it" and folk like Saville exist worldwide just that in Israel and Saudi there are a ton more Jimmy Savilles.

edit: back to the Vegas shooting,
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Last edited by Stonewall_Jack; 04 Oct 17 at 20:48..
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Old 04 Oct 17, 21:00
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Call it what you will, but clearly African-Americans constitute by far the greatest share of victims of illegal weapons. I don't think it's even close.
They do constitute the greatest share of victims of illegal weapons, keep in mind that is from the inner cities that have strict gun control measures in place. Look at the political party that controls those cities and picture those restrictions applied nationwide.

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At one time the NRA was an organization the promoted training for the safe use of firearms.
They still do, we lean on them heavily for Boy Scout training.

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Yet relative to Caucasians, African-Americans are rather unarmed. In a place like New York City, the sheer expense and difficulty of obtaining a CCW is enough to keep many African-Americans from applying.
In the cities with stricter gun control measures yes but doesn't that apply to all that live in those cities?

I'm about 10 miles south of Quantico, mixed neighborhood.....everyone that I know here has at least one gun.

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Why should they? If they did, they wouldn't be criminals. They rely on law-abiding citizens to obey the law: makes preying upon them easier.
You fat fingered that......you quoted me but I never posted what you quoted.
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Old 04 Oct 17, 21:04
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See there is something we can do without modifying the Constitution.

As I said, the bump stock should never have been allowed. I'm really surprised that it wasn't stopped in 2010 when it first came out.
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She's a total loon.

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R Maddow is damn good...better then probably every conservative commentator out their save Will Cain.


The Catholic Church has always stood up for what is right. I dont see anything wrong with you and your views are peaceful. But I will say if anything its part of the 1984 mindset to up and agree with the line that Jews control the banks, Muslims want to blow us up, Catholic Priests are molesters or that blacks steal tvs, or that Irish are drunk the Italians are mobsters etc.

The UK and USA are among the most free societies in the world. So is Ireland and Italy for that matter. Israel and Saudi otoh should be the worlds focus for their intolerant policies. That is not to take away from the issues facing the USA like so called race issues, and how transsexuals and Scientologists are the most discriminated group in America by far and wide. In comparing America and England to these self proclaimed free countries like Saudi And Israel I see that America and England are 100X better then Israel and Saudi. And Jimmy Saville, he is just one of a few individuals whom " got away with it" and folk like Saville exist worldwide just that in Israel and Saudi there are a ton more Jimmy Savilles.

edit: back to the Vegas shooting,
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