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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #106  
Old 22 Nov 16, 15:45
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A statue of the Conquistador Sebastián de Belalcázar standing proudly in not Spain...but Columbia. Folks can take what they want from this but this statue speaks volumes in the sense that Columbians(not Spaniards) are ok with having a statue of a Conquistador in their country.

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  #107  
Old 22 Nov 16, 16:00
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Neither the Spaniards or various natives that the Spaniards encountered were perfect people. But as I have been recounting itt...there are tales of honor from both sides, and tales of camaraderie between the Spanish and the so called natives. In fact one Conquistador , Cabeza de Vaca ...was said to take up the life of a native...becoming a shaman of sorts.

Not a Great Beginning, Either

It is fair to say that Cabeza de Vaca and the Karankawas had a difficult relationship. That could be said for most relationships between conquistadors and American Indians throughout the 16th century. Mistrust, hostility, cruelty, and exploitation ran rampant on both sides. As Cabeza de Vaca occasionally notes, however, there appeared to be at least some mutual tolerance between the conquistadors and the Karankawa – amidst the general mistrust, hostility, cruelty, and exploitation.


The rest of us, as naked as we had been born, had lost everything, and while it was not worth much, to us it meant a great deal. It was in November, bitterly cold, and we in such a state that every bone could easily be counted, and we looked like death itself. Upon seeing the disaster we had suffered, our misery and distress, the Indians sat down with us and all began to weep out of compassion for our misfortune, and for more than half an hour they wept so loud and so sincerely that it could be heard far away.
-Cabeza de Vaca, 1542 letter to King Charles V of Spain

By living with the Native Peoples, de Vaca began to see them not as inferiors to be conquered, but as human beings with a right to dignity.

"But when it pleased God our Lord to take us to those Indians, they respected us and held us precious...at which we were not a little astonished, while it clearly shows how, in order to bring those people to Christianity and obedience unto Your Imperial Majesty, they should be well treated, and not otherwise."


- Cabeza de Vaca

Its not the Spanish way to be intolerant...so says Bartolomé de las Casas


All the peoples of the world are men.

-Bartolomé de las Casas

http://www.thestoryoftexas.com/disco.../conquistadors
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  #108  
Old 22 Nov 16, 16:37
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And so, a thread that started with genocide has turned to aesthetics... ?

Seems like a broken thread to me, and I am the one that posted the OP!

When I think of Spain, I think of the remarkable symmetry of its empire. 400 years of Spanish bravado came to an end when a Cruiser named for Columbus was destroyed just a few hours steaming from the place where Columbus was said to have first landed in the New World.
They must have been doing something right if they lasted that long.
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  #109  
Old 22 Nov 16, 17:37
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Are there any statues to Cortez in Mexico?

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  #110  
Old 22 Nov 16, 20:12
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Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
... one can equate the terms "rational people" and "advanced civilization". The Aztecs, while able to construct large structures from stone, remained just that, a stone age culture. They had no pack animals, and apart from dogs, which they kept for food, had no domesticated mammals for food purposes, and despite some rudimentary metallurgy i.e. gold, they relied on obsidian for tools and weapons i.e. more stone. Their newly found empire collapsed in the face of relatively small numbers of technologically superior enemies from a well established, more stable society.

Were they advanced? I suppose, like early Rome, they borrowed from earlier and neighbouring societies, and rose to impose their will to become the most dominant civilization, in a land of stone age civilizations. That said, in comparative terms, in many ways they remain on a level lower than the dominant early modern societies/civilizations of Europe, the Far, Middle and Near East of the same period.

You might want to check out "Collapse - How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" & "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond
ditto...I could not have said it better....I totally agree here
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  #111  
Old 22 Nov 16, 20:28
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Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
And so, a thread that started with genocide has turned to aesthetics... ?

Seems like a broken thread to me, and I am the one that posted the OP!

When I think of Spain, I think of the remarkable symmetry of its empire. 400 years of Spanish bravado came to an end when a Cruiser named for Columbus was destroyed just a few hours steaming from the place where Columbus was said to have first landed in the New World.
They must have been doing something right if they lasted that long.
Agreed. And if Spain hadn't decided to take a sail up north in 1588, they might have lasted quite a bit longer.
Originally, I figured this would address the events in North America, but when it developed into a Spanish/Latin Indian group love fest, I just couldn't resist. For my part in highjacking your thread, accept my apology.
Interesting topic. Let's see if we can get it back on track.

P.S. Hey Pruitt! He forgot the boats too!
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  #112  
Old 22 Nov 16, 22:05
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OK..I'll attempt to put this back on track...

I believe 'genocide' is the wrong word entirely.

I don't think that people like Cortez, Diaz, or any of the other represenatives of the Spanish monarchy had any intention of wiping these Indians out as a people. Cortez's alliances with the Tlaxclallans are a good example of co-operative measures with different native tribes that had nothing to do with extinguishing them as a socal unit.

Cortez and others like him were using old feuds between the different native groups to drive wedges between them. Their prime motivations were gold, and arable land for colonization. Native peoples had to be preserved in some form to provide labour, for local knowledge, and the spaniards had no qualms, religious or otherwise of interbreeding. In fact, preservation of native peoples with the intent of having their pick of the comely and attractive native girls would have been prime mitivation for keeping them intact as a people9s0. The number of women colonists willing to make the trip from the old country and leave all their old ways behind must have been small by comparison with the numbers of native girls on offer for the taking.

Disease was the biggest native killer by far, and the Spanish had no control over it, any more than the indians did. Calling the ravages of smallpox etc a genocide is just plain mis-labeling, or even outright exageration based, I'm sure on the modern need to justify native claims of any sort to apportioning blame for the fall of these empires.

Without the internal rivalry and strife that characterized inter-tribal warfare and squabbling, handing Cortez a ready made national Emergency to intervene in. Cortez and his few men would have been unabe to take advantage, their numbers not being enough even with firepower and the horse to act as 'force multipliers".

Genocide is just not a word I would apply to the period. Lots of other bad terminology could be applied, but not Genocide...

Drusus

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  #113  
Old 22 Nov 16, 22:28
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There were probably some mixed race women that sailed to Mexico with Cortez and Narvaez. Someone had to cook, sew and nurse the sick and wounded. The social system set up in Mexico was probably a variation of the one in Spain. In Spain the Nobility came in on top under the Royal Family. None of these people wanted to leave Spain. I think a number of Gentry went out as well as commoners, bondsmen and mixed races. The New World saw a lot of mixed Moors, converted Moslems and converted Jews trying to get away from the Inquisition. Going to Mexico was more appealing than heading to North Africa.

Cortez was supposedly an ex-swineherd, which probably rules out being a descendant of Jews or Muslims. My wife is a Cajun. I thought she was a mix of French, German with perhaps a bit of Spanish and Native American. I had Family Tree analyze my daughter's Mitochondrial and Autosomal DNA analyzed. She showed Spanish, some French, some Canary Islander and gene markers of Ashkenazi and Sephardic ancestry. No German or Indian? These tests aren't that accurate, but they are good to bring humor to people.

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  #114  
Old 23 Nov 16, 01:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
OK..I'll attempt to put this back on track...

I believe 'genocide' is the wrong word entirely. I don't think that people like Cortez, Diaz, or any of the other represenatives of the Spanish monarchy had any intention of wiping these Indians out as a people. Cortez's alliances with the Tlaxclallans are a good example of co-operative measures with different native tribes that had nothing to do with extingguishing them as a socal unit. Cortez and others like him were using old fueds between the differing ntive groups to drive wedges between them. Their prime motivations were gold, and arable land for colonization. Native peoples had to be preserved in some form to provide labour, for local knowledge, and the spaniards had no qualms, religious or otherwise of interbreeding. In fact, preservation of native peoples with the intent of having their pick of the comely and attractive native girls would have been prime mitivation for keeping them intact as a people9s0. The number of women colonists willing to make the trip from the old country and leave all their old ways behind must have been small by comparison with the numbers of native girls on offer for the taking.

disease was the biggest native killer by far, and the spanish had no control over it, any more than the indians did. Calling the ravages of smallpox etc a genocide is just plain mislabelling, or even outright exageration, based, I'm sure, on the modern need to justify native claims of any sort toapportioning blame for the fall of these empires.

Without the internal rivalry and strife that characterized inter tribal warfare and squabbling, Cortez and his few men would have been unabe to take advantage, their numbers not being enough even with firepower and the horse to act as 'force multipliers".

Genocide is just not a word I would apply to the period.lots of other bad terminology could be applied, but not Genocide...

Drusus
I'm 0 for 2 on lengthy replies to your post. Damn ole PC is eating them before I can post. Here's a quick one that I'll try to expand tomorrow.
History supports your stance. The large death tolls of conquest quickly lessened with Iberian dominance. Natives were labor. If their land was to be stripped of its resources, labor was a critical.
In Latin/South America co-mingling was the norm. So much that it created two distinct groups. The Creole (whole blood Spaniards born in the Colonies and Mestizos (Native and Spanish mix).
If you really want to look at examples of attempts at total eradication, you'll have to look North where the influx of European women and unsuitability of native labor led to a much more separate development.
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  #115  
Old 23 Nov 16, 09:40
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it is what humans have been doing since the beginning of time---warring, killing, raping, murdering, conquering,genocide, etc
..[ even people that ''love'' each other, sometimes get divorced, and it leads to hatred then to violence and murder ]
genocide? sure--sometimes tribes or families would kill, or want to kill, the other family/tribe that was causing problems
there's a whole range of murder, killing, ''genocide'', etc--
from the range wars of the Old American West, to the nazi Holocaust....from the Iroquois life of war to the Crusades where some crusaders were not good guys at all
murder--killing--and then the cycle goes on, and the revenge for revenge
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  #116  
Old 23 Nov 16, 12:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
There were probably some mixed race women that sailed to Mexico with Cortez and Narvaez. Someone had to cook, sew and nurse the sick and wounded. The social system set up in Mexico was probably a variation of the one in Spain. In Spain the Nobility came in on top under the Royal Family. None of these people wanted to leave Spain. I think a number of Gentry went out as well as commoners, bondsmen and mixed races. The New World saw a lot of mixed Moors, converted Moslems and converted Jews trying to get away from the Inquisition. Going to Mexico was more appealing than heading to North Africa.

Cortez was supposedly an ex-swineherd, which probably rules out being a descendant of Jews or Muslims. My wife is a Cajun. I thought she was a mix of French, German with perhaps a bit of Spanish and Native American. I had Family Tree analyze my daughter's Mitochondrial and Autosomal DNA analyzed. She showed Spanish, some French, some Canary Islander and gene markers of Ashkenazi and Sephardic ancestry. No German or Indian? These tests aren't that accurate, but they are good to bring humor to people.

Pruitt
Pruitt, this is great logic, right there you can assume correctly, and dismiss altogether Cortez's Muslim roots as a myth!

Beautiful...original thought....worth a pip !!!


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  #117  
Old 23 Nov 16, 13:07
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I have never heard of Cortez having Muslim roots. Do you have any links to some articles I can read?

Pruitt
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  #118  
Old 23 Nov 16, 18:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
OK..I'll attempt to put this back on track...

I believe 'genocide' is the wrong word entirely.

I don't think that people like Cortez, Diaz, or any of the other represenatives of the Spanish monarchy had any intention of wiping these Indians out as a people. Cortez's alliances with the Tlaxclallans are a good example of co-operative measures with different native tribes that had nothing to do with extinguishing them as a socal unit.

Cortez and others like him were using old feuds between the different native groups to drive wedges between them. Their prime motivations were gold, and arable land for colonization. Native peoples had to be preserved in some form to provide labour, for local knowledge, and the spaniards had no qualms, religious or otherwise of interbreeding. In fact, preservation of native peoples with the intent of having their pick of the comely and attractive native girls would have been prime mitivation for keeping them intact as a people9s0. The number of women colonists willing to make the trip from the old country and leave all their old ways behind must have been small by comparison with the numbers of native girls on offer for the taking.

Disease was the biggest native killer by far, and the Spanish had no control over it, any more than the indians did. Calling the ravages of smallpox etc a genocide is just plain mis-labeling, or even outright exageration based, I'm sure on the modern need to justify native claims of any sort to apportioning blame for the fall of these empires.

Without the internal rivalry and strife that characterized inter-tribal warfare and squabbling, handing Cortez a ready made national Emergency to intervene in. Cortez and his few men would have been unabe to take advantage, their numbers not being enough even with firepower and the horse to act as 'force multipliers".

Genocide is just not a word I would apply to the period. Lots of other bad terminology could be applied, but not Genocide...

Drusus
What your saying is much in line with what I have been saying itt. I agree with you that

I don't think that people like Cortez, Diaz, or any of the other represenatives of the Spanish monarchy had any intention of wiping these Indians out as a people.

I showed documentation earlier that suggested both sides committed crimes but that there was also a level of friendship between the Spaniards and the so called natives.
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Old 23 Nov 16, 18:09
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
I have never heard of Cortez having Muslim roots. Do you have any links to some articles I can read?

Pruitt
Here you are,

https://www.google.com/search?q=Cort...utf-8&oe=utf-8
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Old 23 Nov 16, 18:16
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Originally Posted by Drusus Nero View Post
Pruitt, this is great logic, right there you can assume correctly, and dismiss altogether Cortez's Muslim roots as a myth!

Beautiful...original thought....worth a pip !!!


Drusus
I find Cortez to have been Catholic but I take zero offense at anyone suggesting Cortez might have Muslim links. After all a huge portion of Spain was Muslim for centuries so its not a totally outlandish statement to make. Again, you ask me...Cortez was Catholic, not Muslim.
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The Rise of an American Leaderhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=ab0stjCK81Q
The philosophy of the gospel is the philosophy of equality, consequently the most favorable to republican government
-Napoleon Bonaparte
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