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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #91  
Old 21 Nov 16, 00:07
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For those interested.

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  #92  
Old 21 Nov 16, 08:17
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Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
For those interested.

yes, read that some time ago....
I thought he meant that it was only because of ''luck'', circumstance, etc that the Europeans were 'able' to conquer what they did and have the technology..? they lived in the geography and climate conducive to farming--middle Europe, etc....
so long ago since I've read it.
but the US NAs also lived in the same 'lucky' location--the Midwest...
the Europeans had the food, dairy products, meat, nourishment, etc that more of them were able to have the time for fine arts, manufacturing, science, etc that was way above natives of the Americas..?
would not the European childrens' brains develop more if they had better and more nourishment?
what about the Scandinavians? I don't recall them in the book...when did they start their civilizations ? their geography and climate not too conducive for living?
so many aspects here...thanks for replies

Last edited by Moulin; 21 Nov 16 at 08:24..
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  #93  
Old 21 Nov 16, 09:17
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Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
(...)
What about the Scandinavians? I don't recall them in the book...when did they start their civilizations ? their geography and climate not too conducive for living ?
Reportedly they made it over there long before the European nations did.

They did not have the established nation states to support the colonies with a steady flow of new colonists though - and thus their pioneers probably did not receive the support needed to persist and form lasting colonies.

The first European colonies were also abortive for the most part.
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  #94  
Old 21 Nov 16, 09:39
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The Scandinavians were living on the fringe of Europe. They had access to whatever Europe. Denmark and Sweden even had colonies in the Americas. Denmark still represents Greenland on Foreign Policy matters.

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Old 21 Nov 16, 09:39
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Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
Reportedly they made it over there long before the European nations did.

They did not have the established nation states to support the colonies with a steady flow of new colonists though - and thus their pioneers probably did not receive the support needed to persist and form lasting colonies.

The first European colonies were also abortive for the most part.
thank you for reply
I take it you mean the Scandinavians did not have the support? good point
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  #96  
Old 21 Nov 16, 09:48
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I think the Scandinavians looked a little closer to Europe for most of their colonies. Denmark was involved in Germany and England. Norway went to Iceland, Greenland, Ireland and Britain. Sweden went East into the Baltics and what is now Russia (which is named after Swedish Vikings). The Swedes also went into Finland.

During the period of European Colonization, Sweden went into what is now Delaware and New Jersey in the US. Denmark ended up with the Virgin Islands to grow sugar. Norway was usually dominated by Denmark or Sweden.

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Old 21 Nov 16, 10:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
The Scandinavians were living on the fringe of Europe. They had access to whatever Europe had(?).

Denmark and Sweden even had colonies in the Americas. Denmark still represents Greenland on Foreign Policy matters.

Pruitt
Sure - but they lacked the steady influx of new arrivals the later European colonies in the Americas had.

Part of it of course due to fact their glory days came much earlier.

Thus the Scandinavian colonies had little to no lasting effect on the natives although they presumably interacted with them.

Quote:
During the period of European Colonization, Sweden went into what is now Delaware and New Jersey in the US. Denmark ended up with the Virgin Islands to grow sugar. Norway was usually dominated by Denmark or Sweden.
That would have been much later though ? Presumably the late 18th or 19th century ?
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  #98  
Old 21 Nov 16, 11:10
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Denmark acquired uninhabited Saint Thomas in 1672 and St John in 1675. They bought St Croix in 1673 from a French Company. When the Danish Company failed the Danish Crown took them over. The Danes depended on Slavery/Sugar for profit. A rebellion in 1848 ended Slavery and the Danes did not like the money drain so they began to look for a buyer. The US finally bought them in 1918.

Norway has been dominated for many years by its neighbors, Sweden and Denmark. The great Warrior King of Sweden Karl XII died leading an assault on a fort in Norway. Because of its position, Norway was dominated the North Sea and North Atlantic since Viking times. Not many people today know that the Isle of Man, the Shetlands and the Orkneys once belonged to Norway.

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  #99  
Old 21 Nov 16, 16:09
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Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
yes, read that some time ago....
I thought he meant that it was only because of ''luck'', circumstance, etc that the Europeans were 'able' to conquer what they did and have the technology..? they lived in the geography and climate conducive to farming--middle Europe, etc....
so long ago since I've read it.
but the US NAs also lived in the same 'lucky' location--the Midwest...
the Europeans had the food, dairy products, meat, nourishment, etc that more of them were able to have the time for fine arts, manufacturing, science, etc that was way above natives of the Americas..?
would not the European childrens' brains develop more if they had better and more nourishment?
what about the Scandinavians? I don't recall them in the book...when did they start their civilizations ? their geography and climate not too conducive for living?
so many aspects here...thanks for replies
As has been pointed out the Spaniards under Cortes took up a friendship with the Aztecs. Eventually there would be warfare between the Spaniards and the Aztecs...though nobody knows exactly why the war started in the first place.



What is certain is that both the Aztecs and Spaniards of the 16th century were tremendously talented people. Look at the incredible cities built by the Aztecs, look at the circumnavigational skills of the Spaniards.

To this day...there are families in Vera Cruz of who are direct descendants of the Spaniards and natives. The day of the dead festival is held around the world to honor the Aztecs as well as the Catholic explorers of 16th century Mexico. I think its quite a beautiful topic to read about.
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Old 21 Nov 16, 17:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I also didn't help the indigenous population any not knowing European politics. Tribes often choose poorly siding with one European faction or another in their wars. The US war of 1812 for example saw the Great Lakes tribes under Tecumseh side with the British only to lose and face retribution by the US.
The French and Indian war, likewise. The French lost and the Indians got bent over afterwards.
Tribes that sided with Spanish conquistadors found out after winning they were next on the "to be enslaved" list.

When you look at the large picture...where do you rank the Aztec Empire...up there with the Mongol and Roman Empire? Of course the Aztec Empire was not around for as long as the Mongol and Roman Empire

Nevertheless, considering the Aztecs had one of the largest cities in the world during the 15th century shows that the Aztecs were highly civilized people.

Relations between the Spaniards and the so called natives of the Americans varied...neither side was perfect BUT we can find stories of inspiration from both sides,

Matthew Restall’s Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest certainly acknowledges the importance of germs and steel. However, Restall’s account reveals other crucial ingredients of Spanish conquest–the fact that both the Aztec and the Incas were relatively recent and loosely consolidated empires. A key factor was political alliance. The Spaniards were able to effectively marshal thousands of indigenous allies into a fight against Aztec or Inca overlords. Moreover, in the chapters on “The Myth of Completion” and “The Myth of Native Desolation,” Restall makes clear the conquest was never as complete as the Spanish portrayed. The resulting colonial polities would be part of a co-production of European power and allied native support. This co-production of modern history, which would dramatically reshape European as well as non-European peoples in every corner of the world, is what Eric Wolf set out to understand in Europe and the People Without History and what Trouillot urges anthropology to consider as a geography of management and geography of imagination.


http://www.livinganthropologically.c...nish-conquest/

The notion(your not saying this but others have) that the Spaniards viewed the natives as idiots is a false viewpoint,

Spaniards could sometimes be awed as well:

When Bernal Díaz first saw the Aztec capital he was lost for words. . . . Díaz’s struggle to describe what he saw–the metropolis of Tenochtitlán, studded with pyramids, crisscrossed with canals, seeming to hover on a lake that was “crowded with canoes” and edged with other “great cities”–derived from his shock at realizing that the world was not what he had perceived it to be. Just as artists would for centuries draw pre-Conquest Tenochtitlán with distinctly European features, so did Díaz try to compare the valley to European cityscapes of his experience, but could not. (Restall 2003:xiii)

David Cahill describes the remarkable infrastructure of the Inca empire:

In the sixteenth century, the Incas had made greater progress toward an integrated imperial language than the Spaniards, who had also to engage with the widely spoken (and written) Arabic of southern Spain. Put another way, the Incas were linguistically more integrated than the Spaniards. . . .

Once ashore, [the Spaniards] were to confront a vastly superior Incan control of communications. This comprised a vast network of highway(s) and transverse linking roads from Quito down into Chile and Argentina; the supply and “post” tambo stations; archipelago and transplant populations (mitmaqkuna) for nonlocal provisioning and logistics; and finally a numerous corps of postilions (chasquis) whose relays knitted the disparate parts together. This system serendipitously facilitated conquest, not least in speeding the arrival in Cuzco of the conquistadors’ indigenous allies from the northern and central Andes. (Advanced Andeans and Backward Europeans 2010:213,216) [See the Cahill essay also for more comments on notions of literacy. The Incas also provide a significant counter-example to the idea that ideas, language, and peoples integrate better across latitude rather than longitude.]


http://www.livinganthropologically.c...nish-conquest/
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  #101  
Old 21 Nov 16, 18:11
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Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
For those interested.

What are your thoughts? Were the Spaniards bloodthirsty beasts seeking to conquer land...or do you have a positive view of the Spaniards and the various native groups the Spaniards encountered?


The Technology Myths of the Spanish Conquest

Many elements have been cited in support of Spanish technological superiority. Restall dismisses most of them.

Horses and Dogs. “Horses and dogs were in limited supply for most of the Conquest period, and both animals could only be used in battle under certain circumstances . . . Conquistadors greatly prized horses, and during campaigns they exchanged hands for high prices. But this was not primarily because they offered a military advantage against native warriors. . . . Above all horses were prized because they were a status symbol” (2003:142).


Guns. “Guns, too, were of limited use. . . . Those Spaniards who did have firearms were lucky to get a single shot off before reversing the weapon to use as a club or dropping it to concentrate on sword wielding” (2003:143).


Literacy. Literacy and knowledge of writing is one of the few places Restall directly challenges Jared Diamond, calling it a “highly problematic generalization” to see literacy as a clear advantage: “It is still not at all clear what difference it could have made. The Spaniards, allegedly better informed, followed the predictable patterns of the Conquest. During the initial encounter this included using legalistic measures to validate their actions, the use of display violence, and the capture of the native ruler” (2003:91).





http://www.livinganthropologically.c...nish-conquest/

Again here is what a Spaniard had to say about the natives he encountered,

When Bernal Díaz first saw the Aztec capital he was lost for words. . . . Díaz’s struggle to describe what he saw–the metropolis of Tenochtitlán, studded with pyramids, crisscrossed with canals, seeming to hover on a lake that was “crowded with canoes” and edged with other “great cities”–derived from his shock at realizing that the world was not what he had perceived it to be. Just as artists would for centuries draw pre-Conquest Tenochtitlán with distinctly European features, so did Díaz try to compare the valley to European cityscapes of his experience, but could not. (Restall 2003:xiii)
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  #102  
Old 21 Nov 16, 23:40
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Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jack View Post
As has been pointed out the Spaniards under Cortes took up a friendship with the Aztecs. Eventually there would be warfare between the Spaniards and the Aztecs...though nobody knows exactly why the war started in the first place.



What is certain is that both the Aztecs and Spaniards of the 16th century were tremendously talented people. Look at the incredible cities built by the Aztecs, look at the circumnavigational skills of the Spaniards.

To this day...there are families in Vera Cruz of who are direct descendants of the Spaniards and natives. The day of the dead festival is held around the world to honor the Aztecs as well as the Catholic explorers of 16th century Mexico. I think its quite a beautiful topic to read about.
Can't decide if your "Ah shucks-Gee Whiz-Gosh and Golly" approach is for real or you're just putting us on, but I'll bite.

Let's start with a renegade Spaniard (Red) who gathers some like minded profiteers and run off chasing rumors of vast silver and gold deposits. Upon landing at what will become Vera Cruz, Red has to burn his ships to stop a mutiny.
He fights with Natives until they learn he's after the hated Aztecs at which time they join his forces.
This paragon of greatness arrives at the Aztec Capital and finds a weak Leader (Monty) who isn't sure if Red is Man or God, so he lets him pass through his defenses and showers him with gold, silver and lots of pretty feathers.
Red's guys find out Monty's running one of the largest human sacrifice rings in human history. Now, Red doesn't care a whit about the victims, he and his men just found it all "dis-heartening". Couple that with the fact that the statues, idols etc. were made of pretty shiny metals, and they decided to cop the goodies for themselves.
Meanwhile, the Spanish Sheriff back in Cuba sends out a posse looking for Red and his gang. Red leaves town to head them off at the pass, and ends up convincing them to help screwing over Monty and his people. They get back in town to find out Red's guys have killed quite a few people eaters creating stress all around.
OK, to wrap this up. Red kills Monty and goes on the lam loaded with swag. The "organ players" work his guys over pretty good on the way out and Red heads south with just a few buddies. However he managed to leave behind some bio-weapons to simmer and fester.
Hanging out and feeling low, Red discovers that the locals hate Monty's people as much as he does and they form a gang. These locals were the material that Monty's dudes were cutting open and they wanted pay back. By the time they get back to town, Red's got maybe 1/2 million of the revenge seekers.
I will admit the ending needs some work. The nasty stuff Red left behind did for a bunch of city dudes so there weren't many left when he showed up at the lake. He and his new friends walked over the ones left breathing.

Epilogue:
Red and his buddies get rich stealing all the valuables and sending them home. They enslave not only Monty's leftovers but a great deal of Red's Allies.
THE END
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  #103  
Old 22 Nov 16, 00:42
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You left out the Smallpox Epidemic that one of Narvaez's men brought with them. It decimated the defenders when "Red's" men laid siege to the place. This time Red ordered the building of boats to get around the Aztec habit of pulling bridges up to keep invaders away. The cannon on these boats also kept the Aztecs away from were the Spanish were going.

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Old 22 Nov 16, 12:40
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holly6 is a jewel in the rough [500]
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Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
You left out the Smallpox Epidemic that one of Narvaez's men brought with them. It decimated the defenders when "Red's" men laid siege to the place. This time Red ordered the building of boats to get around the Aztec habit of pulling bridges up to keep invaders away. The cannon on these boats also kept the Aztecs away from were the Spanish were going.

Pruitt
I got the bio-nastys in there somewhere. But I forgot the boats! THE BOATS!
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Old 22 Nov 16, 15:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holly6 View Post
Can't decide if your "Ah shucks-Gee Whiz-Gosh and Golly" approach is for real or you're just putting us on, but I'll bite.


Let's start with a renegade Spaniard (Red) who gathers some like minded profiteers and run off chasing rumors of vast silver and gold deposits. Upon landing at what will become Vera Cruz, Red has to burn his ships to stop a mutiny.
He fights with Natives until they learn he's after the hated Aztecs at which time they join his forces.

This paragon of greatness arrives at the Aztec Capital and finds a weak Leader (Monty) who isn't sure if Red is Man or God, so he lets him pass through his defenses and showers him with gold, silver and lots of pretty feathers.
Red's guys find out Monty's running one of the largest human sacrifice rings in human history. Now, Red doesn't care a whit about the victims, he and his men just found it all "dis-heartening". Couple that with the fact that the statues, idols etc. were made of pretty shiny metals, and they decided to cop the goodies for themselves.
Meanwhile, the Spanish Sheriff back in Cuba sends out a posse looking for Red and his gang. Red leaves town to head them off at the pass, and ends up convincing them to help screwing over Monty and his people. They get back in town to find out Red's guys have killed quite a few people eaters creating stress all around.
OK, to wrap this up. Red kills Monty and goes on the lam loaded with swag. The "organ players" work his guys over pretty good on the way out and Red heads south with just a few buddies. However he managed to leave behind some bio-weapons to simmer and fester.
Hanging out and feeling low, Red discovers that the locals hate Monty's people as much as he does and they form a gang. These locals were the material that Monty's dudes were cutting open and they wanted pay back. By the time they get back to town, Red's got maybe 1/2 million of the revenge seekers.
I will admit the ending needs some work. The nasty stuff Red left behind did for a bunch of city dudes so there weren't many left when he showed up at the lake. He and his new friends walked over the ones left breathing.

Epilogue:
Red and his buddies get rich stealing all the valuables and sending them home. They enslave not only Monty's leftovers but a great deal of Red's Allies.
THE END
Im not putting on anything. The nobody knows exactly why the war started in the first place was from a documentary I posted in another thread. I find that the Spaniards should not be viewed as greedy...they were men interested in making money just like everyone else. And considering this is a military type forum...whats not to like about both the Aztecs and Conquistadors. I believe that its unfair for the Romans and Mongols to get all the glory and good movies...let us not forget about the Aztecs and Conquistadors.

The larger point I have been trying to make is that the Aztecs and Spaniards under Cortes were civilized people. The Mongols and Romans were no angels but they are both considered to be civilized. So I apply the same type of respect to the Aztecs and Spaniards under Cortes as I do wrt the Mongols and Romans.

Here is another description of what occurred between the Spanish and the Aztecs,

As Cortés traveled westward through mountain towns and villages, many of the Indians living along this path told him of their cruel treatment at the hands of the Aztec overlords. Through these meetings, Cortés began to understand the depth of this hatred and fear. He also recognized that many of these people would be potential allies in a showdown with the Mexica.

On November 2, 1519, Cortés' forces moved through a mountain pass that lay 13,000 feet above sea level. From this path, the Spaniards could see the smoking volcano Popocatepetl (Smoking Mountain) and Ixtaccihuatl (Mountain of White Woman), which reach 17,887 feet and 17,000 feet, respectively. From the mountain pass, the Spaniards witnessed for the first time the great splendor of Tenochtitlán as it spread out on the valley floor. Before long, the mountain pass, with the great Valley of México in full view, descended to lower altitudes, eventually bringing Cortés and his forces to an altitude of 7,400 above sea level along the valley floor.

Finally, on November 8, 1519, Cortés and his large army reached Xoloco, just outside of Tenochtitlán, where they were greeted by hundreds of emissaries of Moctezuma. As they were brought into the city, the Spaniards stared in awe at the architectural precision of the city. Filing across the southern causeway of the capital, Cortés and his men were greeted with much ceremony by a retinue of lords and nobles headed by Moctezuma himself.

The wary Moctezuma made great efforts to play the perfect host, showing his unwanted guests around the city and entertaining them with splendid banquets.

After several days of negotiations and touring, Cortés and his officers took Moctezuma as a hostage. Bringing the King to his barracks, Cortés persuaded him to dispatch messengers to the surrounding communities to collect gold and silver, part of which was sent to the Spanish monarch in the name of Moctezuma and part of which was divided among Cortés' troops. Moctezuma's imprisonment continued for eight months.

Then, on April 19, 1520, more ships appeared off the coast of México. The governor of Cuba had sent soldiers under Panfilo de Narvaez to arrest Captain-General Cortés for insubordination. Leaving Captain Pedro de Alvarado in charge of his troops, Cortés quickly departed from Tenochtitlán with 266 Spanish soldiers to confront the newly arrived Spanish force on the Gulf Coast. Although Narvaez's troops numbered three times greater, Cortés and his small army defeated Narvaez in a battle near Veracruz, after which most of Narvaez's troops joined Cortés.

When Cortés returned to Tenochtitlán, he found out that Pedro de Alvarado had provoked an open revolt by massacring 600 Aztec nobles during the Feast of Huitzilopochtli. Fighting quickly broke out in full force the day after Cortés returned, and the sheer numbers of the Aztec army overwhelmed the Captain-General's army, which numbered only 1,250 Spaniards and 8,000 Mexican warriors. His army was forced to retreat back into the barracks. In the days to follow, as the Indians besieged the palace, Moctezuma was killed by a shower of stones directed by his angry subjects to their captive emperor. Moctezuma was succeeded as emperor by Cuitlahuac, who decided that the Spaniards must be annihilated.

Under a complete siege by Aztec forces in Tenochtitlán, Cortés on July 1, 1520 attempted to break out of the city and cross the lake to the mainland by marching down one of the causeways. As the force left the palace at midnight, Cortés had some 1,250 Spanish soldiers and at least 5,000 Tlaxcalan warriors. While they were crossing the bridge leaving the city, the Aztecs fell upon the army and inflicted heavy damage. In the disorder, Spanish soldiers who had been too greedy and filled their pockets with gold were pushed into Lake Texcoco and drowned.


And the documentary I brought up specifically suggests that nobody knows exactly why Monty(as you call him) was taken as a "captive" or "prisoner". Heck we can not even figure out a proper term, was Monty a POW, captive, a criminal? Also the same documentary suggests that it is unknown why the fighting between Alvarado and the Aztecs broke out in the first place.
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