HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > North America

Notices and Announcements

North America Important Events in Canada and the United States. .

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #241  
Old 03 Oct 17, 11:37
101combatvet's Avatar
101combatvet 101combatvet is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Shooter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC, Chesapeake Bay or Lima
Posts: 16,000
101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
They don't. But the ideas behind them still hold merit - and the laws themselves are still enshrined, meaning that they can't be broken easily.

It comes down to two different frames for the issues: ideological and practical.

Ideologically, the 2nd Amendment was not just about the role of the militia (though that was a big part), but the idea that the people should be able to maintain some means of defending themselves. Not just against their neighbor, but against the central authority. It was crafted during a revolution against a "tyrant", and thus the founders felt that the people needed the means to protect themselves if (and when) their own fledgling government crossed that line as well.

We have to remember that there were still revolutionaries, and some of them were quite explicit on how they didn't trust the new United States to last very long without the need for another such revolution.

In the modern context, that argument fails miserable (despite what some of the staunchest 2nd Amendment defenders say) because the gulf between what the citizen and what the central authority possess is just too big.

In the 1770s, the arms of the infantry were not that far removed from what the average farmer could/did possess. Sure, not everyone could possess cannons (in practical terms, I mean), but at least the common citizen possessed what in today's world would be the equivalent of a assault rifle, helmet and body armor.

But today, that gulf is even greater. The central authorities are too far removed from the people in terms of capabilities that the 2nd Amendment is functionally useless in terms of allowing a cadre of revolutionaries to overthrow the central government according to the constitutionally protected laws of the land.

Simply put, for people to manage what the 2nd Amendment intended, they would need to be legally able to possess everything the US military can obtain. That means they, if they had the money and desire, would be allowed to possess nuclear weapons, biological agents, high explosives, and any and all other tools of warfare.

Revolvers and shotguns won't defeat the US military if it turns on the populace at the will of an elected tyrant.

Now, what makes this worse for the Amendment is that many will argue that in such a situation, the US military would side with the people and bring their weapons with them. Which is almost certainly true, but that just undermines the necessity of the 2nd Amendment to begin with.

After all, if the people can rely upon the military to provide all the means of defense against the central authority they would need, then there isn't a need for them to defend themselves. It becomes a self-defeating argument.

For the 2nd Amendment to mean what the founders intended (and what it describes), then the common man has to be allowed to possess the true means to protect himself against enemies both foreign and domestic - and that would mean allowing the common citizen to purchase (if able) everything the US government can possess as well.
__________________
My worst jump story:
My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
No lie.

~
"Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
-2 Commando Jumpmaster
Reply With Quote
  #242  
Old 03 Oct 17, 11:38
Combat Engineer's Avatar
Combat Engineer Combat Engineer is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: John Rainey
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Saint Louis MO
Posts: 23,679
Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
They don't. But the ideas behind them still hold merit - and the laws themselves are still enshrined, meaning that they can't be broken easily.

It comes down to two different frames for the issues: ideological and practical.

Ideologically, the 2nd Amendment was not just about the role of the militia (though that was a big part), but the idea that the people should be able to maintain some means of defending themselves. Not just against their neighbor, but against the central authority. It was crafted during a revolution against a "tyrant", and thus the founders felt that the people needed the means to protect themselves if (and when) their own fledgling government crossed that line as well.

We have to remember that there were still revolutionaries, and some of them were quite explicit on how they didn't trust the new United States to last very long without the need for another such revolution.

In the modern context, that argument fails miserable (despite what some of the staunchest 2nd Amendment defenders say) because the gulf between what the citizen and what the central authority possess is just too big.

In the 1770s, the arms of the infantry were not that far removed from what the average farmer could/did possess. Sure, not everyone could possess cannons (in practical terms, I mean), but at least the common citizen possessed what in today's world would be the equivalent of a assault rifle, helmet and body armor.

But today, that gulf is even greater. The central authorities are too far removed from the people in terms of capabilities that the 2nd Amendment is functionally useless in terms of allowing a cadre of revolutionaries to overthrow the central government according to the constitutionally protected laws of the land.

Simply put, for people to manage what the 2nd Amendment intended, they would need to be legally able to possess everything the US military can obtain. That means they, if they had the money and desire, would be allowed to possess nuclear weapons, biological agents, high explosives, and any and all other tools of warfare.

Revolvers and shotguns won't defeat the US military if it turns on the populace at the will of an elected tyrant.

Now, what makes this worse for the Amendment is that many will argue that in such a situation, the US military would side with the people and bring their weapons with them. Which is almost certainly true, but that just undermines the necessity of the 2nd Amendment to begin with.

After all, if the people can rely upon the military to provide all the means of defense against the central authority they would need, then there isn't a need for them to defend themselves. It becomes a self-defeating argument.

For the 2nd Amendment to mean what the founders intended (and what it describes), then the common man has to be allowed to possess the true means to protect himself against enemies both foreign and domestic - and that would mean allowing the common citizen to purchase (if able) everything the US government can possess as well.
No, you'd not have to possess all the same types of weapons the military has. The last 60 years of war have shown us that. The US is to big and to heavily populated for any Armed force or Police force to control by force of arms.

So that relevance of the 2nd amendment still applies.

It all comes down to rights in the constitution are not absolute.. see the you can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theater line of arguments.

SCOTUS has laid down one side of a set of markers with the Heller and McDonald case. What needs to happen now is for a case to give us the other end of a set of brackets. Those two cases laid down the 'local/state government went to far' marker. We now need a 'No that law is NOT to far' maker to establish the other side of the bracket. After that it's a matter of working to the middle point.
__________________
“we drafted the lowest-income level of America, and the highest-income level found a doctor that would say that they had a bone spur”
― Sen John McCain
Reply With Quote
  #243  
Old 03 Oct 17, 11:44
Daemon of Decay's Avatar
Daemon of Decay Daemon of Decay is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Sinc
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 
March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: @ThatDerekFellow
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Drying out the home in Texas
Posts: 25,261
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
— Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride
If you can't even point out how and where it happened, you're just claiming you saw big foot without even going to the work of making fake footprints. I don't think you will - that would require effort - but it's still worth pointing out.

But it does serve as a useful reference to others about what I meant when I said there are two-sides of this issue for whom righteous anger and rage are what truly matters instead of solutions. A solution to mass murders requires actual work and has real costs involved, while fighting over barrel length just creates the illusion of effort.
__________________
Do you like my car?
Reply With Quote
  #244  
Old 03 Oct 17, 11:48
101combatvet's Avatar
101combatvet 101combatvet is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Shooter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC, Chesapeake Bay or Lima
Posts: 16,000
101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
You post and I interpret, your pretty easy to figure out. Have the whole thread for yourself.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post

Anyway, if you ever have the means to respond to what I actually said, instead of fabricating your own fantasies about what you think I believe (or how I vote ) then feel free to address them in kind. Otherwise, it might be better if you just took a breather - or just asked me questions about what I believed. Ignorance isn't defeated by staying silent and making stuff up.
__________________
My worst jump story:
My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
No lie.

~
"Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
-2 Commando Jumpmaster
Reply With Quote
  #245  
Old 03 Oct 17, 11:52
101combatvet's Avatar
101combatvet 101combatvet is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Shooter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC, Chesapeake Bay or Lima
Posts: 16,000
101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] 101combatvet has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Personal insult deleted - ACG Staff.

Otherwise, I would suggest going to the library for a "change."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
— Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride
If you can't even point out how and where it happened, you're just claiming you saw big foot without even going to the work of making fake footprints. I don't think you will - that would require effort - but it's still worth pointing out.

But it does serve as a useful reference to others about what I meant when I said there are two-sides of this issue for whom righteous anger and rage are what truly matters instead of solutions. A solution to mass murders requires actual work and has real costs involved, while fighting over barrel length just creates the illusion of effort.
__________________
My worst jump story:
My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
No lie.

~
"Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
-2 Commando Jumpmaster

Last edited by Daemon of Decay; 03 Oct 17 at 12:08..
Reply With Quote
  #246  
Old 03 Oct 17, 12:04
Daemon of Decay's Avatar
Daemon of Decay Daemon of Decay is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Sinc
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 
March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: @ThatDerekFellow
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Drying out the home in Texas
Posts: 25,261
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat Engineer View Post
No, you'd not have to possess all the same types of weapons the military has. The last 60 years of war have shown us that. The US is to big and to heavily populated for any Armed force or Police force to control by force of arms.

So that relevance of the 2nd amendment still applies.
What I mean is that the gulf exists and is enforced by law.

In the early days of the nation, there wasn't a law saying one couldn't build their own man-of-war... just no reason to do so (beyond the prohibitive costs). There were some restrictions, and the role of the state in "regulating" the militia was always there, but the gulf between what the people can easily possess and what the military can has grown exponentially, and the state has implemented laws to help solidify those barriers.

Quote:
It all comes down to rights in the constitution are not absolute.. see the you can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theater line of arguments.

SCOTUS has laid down one side of a set of markers with the Heller and McDonald case. What needs to happen now is for a case to give us the other end of a set of brackets. Those two cases laid down the 'local/state government went to far' marker. We now need a 'No that law is NOT to far' maker to establish the other side of the bracket. After that it's a matter of working to the middle point.
Oh absolutely, I am with you. That's one reason I tend to point out that people who argue about the plain and self-evident language of the constitution is easily applied in all situations is somewhat laughable, since it takes the people acting through their government to help define those limits. We as a people are comfortable with the idea that the 2nd Amendment doesn't apply to nuclear arms because we have collectively decided that it isn't in our interests to allow that much self-protection.

But that only illustrates further that the role of the 2nd Amendment in allowing the people to protect themselves against a tyrannical authority - one of its key reasons for existing - is neutered in the modern world, and not just because of those very real practical reasons.

Imagine a Revolutionary War where the British could eradicate whole rebellious cities with the push of a button and the colonists could not respond in kind. In such a case it suddenly just becomes a question of whether or not King George had the willingness to push that (probably ornate) button, and not one where the ability of the individual to defend themselves against what they viewed as tyranny was a true factor.

That's not to say that if modern America had an early 19th-century approach to arms controls there still wouldn't be issues. The practical issues mentioned repeatedly are the biggest barrier of all. But even if I had the funds to arm myself fully, the law would still prevent me from being truly capable of using solely my force of arms to protect my own subjective view on what my rights are.
__________________
Do you like my car?
Reply With Quote
  #247  
Old 03 Oct 17, 13:00
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,920
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Look, this guy wanted to massacre that crowd. If he was really, thoroughly set on doing that and planning it, it was going to happen regardless of how many laws were in place trying to keep him from doing it.

For example, he couldn't use firearms. What's stopping him from loading say a Cessna 150 with a large, homemade, fragmentation bomb and flying over the venue at a few dozen feet and detonating it, or even kamikazeing it into the crowd? He had a pilot's license.

Truck bomb?

Driving vehicle into the crowd?

All you do with masses of laws is change people's behavior. You don't change their motivation. This guy planned an evil act and was going to carry it out. More gun control laws wouldn't change that. They might change his method, but that's about it.
Reply With Quote
  #248  
Old 03 Oct 17, 13:07
Bass_Man86's Avatar
Bass_Man86 Bass_Man86 is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Mario De Losa
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The roads of Hampton
Posts: 8,362
Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Bass_Man86 has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Hey, peasano, that's an interesting view you take. In your homeland, who besides the government and the gangs are armed? How has that worked for the work-a-day citizens of Italy over the last century-plus? Tell us, what fate befalls an Italian citizen when he refuses a wiseguy "un pizzo"? Millions of your countrymen came here, and they were every bit the prey here that they were back in the Old Country: unarmed, vulnerable to criminals and police alike. Indeed, the Irish flatfoot of a century ago didn't give a rat's a$$ about the swarthy types sweating out their lives on Mulberry Street. I can't think of a civil population more in need of weapons than southern Italians, can you?
And when was the last time that there was a mass shooting in Italy Marc? Give up? In Milan 1993; five dead, 12 wounded. Now compare that to what just happened in Vegas. Come on Marc, I should be able to expect better from you. By the by, organized crime and crooked cops up do all those things that you talk about right here in the good old US of A.
__________________
Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

Initiated Chief Petty Officer
Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!
Reply With Quote
  #249  
Old 03 Oct 17, 13:10
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,920
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
And when was the last time that there was a mass shooting in Italy Marc? Give up? In Milan 1993; five dead, 12 wounded. Now compare that to what just happened in Vegas. Come on Marc, I should be able to expect better from you. By the by, organized crime and crooked cops up do all those things that you talk about right here in the good old US of A.
Just because American shooters are more proficient than Italian shooters means nothing...

Norway had one with 77 dead... Anders Breivik, was the POS there. So?
Reply With Quote
  #250  
Old 03 Oct 17, 13:16
Daemon of Decay's Avatar
Daemon of Decay Daemon of Decay is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Sinc
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 
March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: @ThatDerekFellow
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Drying out the home in Texas
Posts: 25,261
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Look, this guy wanted to massacre that crowd. If he was really, thoroughly set on doing that and planning it, it was going to happen regardless of how many laws were in place trying to keep him from doing it.

For example, he couldn't use firearms. What's stopping him from loading say a Cessna 150 with a large, homemade, fragmentation bomb and flying over the venue at a few dozen feet and detonating it, or even kamikazeing it into the crowd? He had a pilot's license.

Truck bomb?

Driving vehicle into the crowd?

All you do with masses of laws is change people's behavior. You don't change their motivation. This guy planned an evil act and was going to carry it out. More gun control laws wouldn't change that. They might change his method, but that's about it.
That is wrong, but only slightly. On the one hand, your logic is the same used by the "legalize it all" crowd - that since anyone who wants meth, crack or heroine is going to get it regardless, legislation doesn't actually prevent them from doing it. Many people are either way on such issues, but one cannot deny that having the means to do something readily available makes using that item easier.

But you're absolutely right in that what you touch upon is that laws do not solve the problem alone. There is no panacea that Congress can pass regarding guns that would mitigate this issue to the degree some seem to expect. The gun control lobby, in their follies, are capable of seeing that guns are an inherent part of the problem but fail to truly reach beyond that - or worse, underplay the other elements to focus on guns and guns alone, as if the tool is the only facet to these crimes.

But this once again represents the myopic nature of the gun control debate; even the name is a clue. The issue should not just be guns. It should be the "violent crimes debate" or "mass murder issue". Guns are a part of it, as anyone trying to claim enforced gun laws have no impact on firearm-related crimes is deluding themselves. But their opponents who see firearms as the big bad boogie man are just as delusional - especially when it is things like barrel length or clip size that they decry as such huge enablers.

These tragedies are not single-variable equations.
__________________
Do you like my car?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #251  
Old 03 Oct 17, 13:29
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,920
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
That is wrong, but only slightly. On the one hand, your logic is the same used by the "legalize it all" crowd - that since anyone who wants meth, crack or heroine is going to get it regardless, legislation doesn't actually prevent them from doing it. Many people are either way on such issues, but one cannot deny that having the means to do something readily available makes using that item easier.

But you're absolutely right in that what you touch upon is that laws do not solve the problem alone. There is no panacea that Congress can pass regarding guns that would mitigate this issue to the degree some seem to expect. The gun control lobby, in their follies, are capable of seeing that guns are an inherent part of the problem but fail to truly reach beyond that - or worse, underplay the other elements to focus on guns and guns alone, as if the tool is the only facet to these crimes.

But this once again represents the myopic nature of the gun control debate; even the name is a clue. The issue should not just be guns. It should be the "violent crimes debate" or "mass murder issue". Guns are a part of it, as anyone trying to claim enforced gun laws have no impact on firearm-related crimes is deluding themselves. But their opponents who see firearms as the big bad boogie man are just as delusional - especially when it is things like barrel length or clip size that they decry as such huge enablers.

These tragedies are not single-variable equations.
What I'm pointing out is that there is a Law of Diminishing Returns (LDR) in play here. It's the same with the environmentalists or safety nuts who are howling for zero tolerance. Draconian laws don't work in these situations. We're already well past the LDR point where additional gun control laws are going to do little or nothing.
Maybe we should focus on lax mental illness laws instead. Today in the US the mentally ill end up in prison only after they commit some horrific crime. Even when they are known to be mentally ill and have some obvious indicators they're potentially dangerous, they're left free in society. Bringing back more supervision and mandatory programs for this sort of person would be a wise step.
Sure, in the Las Vegas case it wouldn't have made a difference, but in many other mass shootings it would have (Tucson and Virginia Tech for example).
Reply With Quote
  #252  
Old 03 Oct 17, 14:11
Daemon of Decay's Avatar
Daemon of Decay Daemon of Decay is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Sinc
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 
March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: @ThatDerekFellow
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Drying out the home in Texas
Posts: 25,261
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
What I'm pointing out is that there is a Law of Diminishing Returns (LDR) in play here. It's the same with the environmentalists or safety nuts who are howling for zero tolerance. Draconian laws don't work in these situations. We're already well past the LDR point where additional gun control laws are going to do little or nothing.
Maybe we should focus on lax mental illness laws instead. Today in the US the mentally ill end up in prison only after they commit some horrific crime. Even when they are known to be mentally ill and have some obvious indicators they're potentially dangerous, they're left free in society. Bringing back more supervision and mandatory programs for this sort of person would be a wise step.
Sure, in the Las Vegas case it wouldn't have made a difference, but in many other mass shootings it would have (Tucson and Virginia Tech for example).
Oh sure, that is why absolutist reasoning fails: we support free speech, but that doesn't mean we support free speech. And that is also not considered hypocrisy or cognitive dissonance but a rational argument. In that sense, it is kinda like a little bit of hyperbole. It is rare for someone to say "I had the worst day" to, if questioned, believe that to be literally true.

Of course, most people are aware of that, which brings us to the diminishing returns part: the truth is that, well, people disagree on where that line is. On many things, of course, but that's sort of the nature of a healthy democracy: people disagree that things are perfect, but feel that they can at least affect enough change to make things better.

There is no objective truth on the issue of gun control. It comes down to perception, and that is why there is so much wiggle room - especially when so much that has been done on the issue is so minor in the grand scheme of things. We've had small limits and more paperwork and debates about the details of acceptable firearms, but we've never had a whole state, say, arm everyone for ten years then disarm everyone for ten years and compare the results.

Which is why so often the partisans throw their own select data at one another and then rage when neither one will just accept their ruling!

I'd say the truth, as best as could be said, is that there is a problem and that the status quo isn't working - and further, that the solution to that problem will not be a simple one just about guns alone.
__________________
Do you like my car?
Reply With Quote
  #253  
Old 03 Oct 17, 14:26
Combat Engineer's Avatar
Combat Engineer Combat Engineer is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: John Rainey
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Saint Louis MO
Posts: 23,679
Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Combat Engineer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
What I'm pointing out is that there is a Law of Diminishing Returns (LDR) in play here. It's the same with the environmentalists or safety nuts who are howling for zero tolerance. Draconian laws don't work in these situations. We're already well past the LDR point where additional gun control laws are going to do little or nothing.
Maybe we should focus on lax mental illness laws instead. Today in the US the mentally ill end up in prison only after they commit some horrific crime. Even when they are known to be mentally ill and have some obvious indicators they're potentially dangerous, they're left free in society. Bringing back more supervision and mandatory programs for this sort of person would be a wise step.
Sure, in the Las Vegas case it wouldn't have made a difference, but in many other mass shootings it would have (Tucson and Virginia Tech for example).
No locking people up for life because we think they might commit a crime is not the answer to anything.

As to second. Sorry budget cuts at the state level for the last 50 years have ripped that safety net to shreds. Find some one in the 'Red' state houses that is for increasing any budget let alone mental health budgets if you can...

Hell they were cut in 'Blue' states.
__________________
“we drafted the lowest-income level of America, and the highest-income level found a doctor that would say that they had a bone spur”
― Sen John McCain
Reply With Quote
  #254  
Old 03 Oct 17, 14:28
slick_miester's Avatar
slick_miester slick_miester is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
 
Real Name: Marc
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 24,875
slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+] slick_miester has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
And when was the last time that there was a mass shooting in Italy Marc? Give up? In Milan 1993; five dead, 12 wounded. Now compare that to what just happened in Vegas. Come on Marc, I should be able to expect better from you. By the by, organized crime and crooked cops up do all those things that you talk about right here in the good old US of A.
According to The Guardian, conditions unique to Italy, have rendered Italy relatively free of Islamic terrorism -- as well as certain practices of Italian police which might be unconstitutional here. My view is that the Italian maniac has always been more fond of the bomb than he is of the firearm: from Sacco & Vanzetti to the Red Brigades to La Borgata en Sicilia, bombs offer more instant death than do firearms, and they more visually impressive, as well.

For all of the corruption in US public life -- which is and has always been quite staggering -- outside of Italian immigrant enclaves early in the 20th century, never have the American people been so subject to such crass gangsterism as have the people of Sicily and Southern Italy. For much of the 20th century La Camorra and the Mafia have constituted effective states within a state, governing large swaths of land, collecting taxes from the residents and from legitimate businesses, administering justice in various disputes, and wielding armed force at will. God help the cop or the prosecutor or the judge whose serious about going after the Mafia: more times than I can count they blew him to bits -- and that wasn't ancient history, but in this decade too. For all of the thousands of little guys who've been bullied and extorted and whacked by both Italians wiseguys and the Italian government, it's a friggin' wonder why Giuseppe Schmo did not choose to arm himself. That's something I simply cannot understand.
__________________
I was married for two ******* years! Hell would be like Club Med! - Sam Kinison
Reply With Quote
  #255  
Old 03 Oct 17, 14:32
Daemon of Decay's Avatar
Daemon of Decay Daemon of Decay is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
Sinc
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Summer Campaign 
March Offensive 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: @ThatDerekFellow
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Drying out the home in Texas
Posts: 25,261
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Daemon of Decay has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combat Engineer View Post
No locking people up for life because we think they might commit a crime is not the answer to anything.

As to second. Sorry budget cuts at the state level for the last 50 years have ripped that safety net to shreds. Find some one in the 'Red' state houses that is for increasing any budget let alone mental health budgets if you can...

Hell they were cut in 'Blue' states.
Which is why I mentioned that neither side is willing to pay the costs on this issue. Not just in political capital, but in greenbacks.

To tighten the lid on this issue will require spending actual money. So while people will talk up how much they despise this mass shooting, how many voters are willing to fork over more of their own paychecks to possibly increase the chance of preventing such a tragedy?
__________________
Do you like my car?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 21:48.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.