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North America Important Events in Canada and the United States. .

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  #46  
Old 19 Jun 17, 10:42
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Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
I will also add that this did not just cost seven Sailors their lives, this collision may very have destined the Fitzgerald for a one way trip to the breakers!
Report say damage was at or very near the keel. That, in my opinion, is going to be a SINKEX for the ship.
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  #47  
Old 19 Jun 17, 10:44
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Originally Posted by FTCS View Post
I think there might be confusing about propulsion plants on the newer destroyers. They are no longer steam turbine but gas turbines. And as Marmat posted the "spool-up" time is minimal. In addition the variable pitch screws are already at the "egg beater" configuration at cruising speed. Under normal cruising all four turbines are not on-line (at least on the Spurance cans they were not) The following video is probably a good idea what a DDG can do. The video was called doing an emergency breakaway but it really wasn't. And I will guarantee all four turbines were on-line (when you need them you need them) Just the typical "see you later" breakaway. We did it all the time (well as long as the Old Man felt like it....when you got a sports car you got to have fun).

https://youtu.be/Q3cHIYXWhe4
Very impressive.
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  #48  
Old 19 Jun 17, 11:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTCS View Post
I think there might be confusing about propulsion plants on the newer destroyers. They are no longer steam turbine but gas turbines. And as Marmat posted the "spool-up" time is minimal. In addition the variable pitch screws are already at the "egg beater" configuration at cruising speed. Under normal cruising all four turbines are not on-line (at least on the Spurance cans they were not) The following video is probably a good idea what a DDG can do. The video was called doing an emergency breakaway but it really wasn't. And I will guarantee all four turbines were on-line (when you need them you need them) Just the typical "see you later" breakaway. We did it all the time (well as long as the Old Man felt like it....when you got a sports car you got to have fun).

https://youtu.be/Q3cHIYXWhe4
I was on 4 Gator ships USMC..we had USMC guards about the ship when we were in port....we had MG posts starboard and port while underway when we were off Columbia with Air Force One choppers on board..but that was the only time I remember USMC posts while underway
.....but I never knew anything about the Navy's watches...where and what type of watches do you think they had at 0130, topside and and below? thanks for replies
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  #49  
Old 19 Jun 17, 11:45
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Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
I was on 4 Gator ships USMC..we had USMC guards about the ship when we were in port....we had MG posts starboard and port while underway when we were off Columbia with Air Force One choppers on board..but that was the only time I remember USMC posts while underway
.....but I never knew anything about the Navy's watches...where and what type of watches do you think they had at 0130, topside and and below? thanks for replies
Watches (at least in my US Navy) aboard DD. It's been a long time (over 36 years since I served) and my memory isn't all it used to be so be advised I might be mistaken.

Topside
Port and Starboard lookouts ,fantail watch

Bridge
OOD, JOOD, Bosun Mate of the watch, Helmsman, Lee Helmsman, Messenger of the watch

CIC
CIC watch officer, at least two if not more OS (Operation Specialist) manning consoles, possibly OS supervisor

Sonar
One if not two passive sonar operators and possibly sonar supervisor

This does not include watch standers in Engineering, Radio, and Weapons Dept watches.
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  #50  
Old 19 Jun 17, 11:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTCS View Post
I think there might be confusing about propulsion plants on the newer destroyers. They are no longer steam turbine but gas turbines. And as Marmat posted the "spool-up" time is minimal. In addition the variable pitch screws are already at the "egg beater" configuration at cruising speed. Under normal cruising all four turbines are not on-line (at least on the Spurance cans they were not) The following video is probably a good idea what a DDG can do. The video was called doing an emergency breakaway but it really wasn't. And I will guarantee all four turbines were on-line (when you need them you need them) Just the typical "see you later" breakaway. We did it all the time (well as long as the Old Man felt like it....when you got a sports car you got to have fun).

https://youtu.be/Q3cHIYXWhe4
I'm probably spoiled by having seen far too much of the local (and foreign) FACs so while you might think that is a sports car... Well let's just say that opinions do vary a bit on that. Impressive for its size certainly.
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  #51  
Old 19 Jun 17, 13:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTCS View Post
I think there might be confusing about propulsion plants on the newer destroyers. They are no longer steam turbine but gas turbines. And as Marmat posted the "spool-up" time is minimal. In addition the variable pitch screws are already at the "egg beater" configuration at cruising speed. Under normal cruising all four turbines are not on-line (at least on the Spurance cans they were not) The following video is probably a good idea what a DDG can do. The video was called doing an emergency breakaway but it really wasn't. And I will guarantee all four turbines were on-line (when you need them you need them) Just the typical "see you later" breakaway. We did it all the time (well as long as the Old Man felt like it....when you got a sports car you got to have fun).

https://youtu.be/Q3cHIYXWhe4
Aegis cruisers and destroyers can go from flank three (pedal to the metal full speed for you landlubbers) to full stop in one and a half times the length of the ship; approximately 1,800 feet. I strongly doubt that the Fitzgerald was doing flank three when this happened. Moreover, the entire time that I sailed with the U.S. Navy, and I was assigned to Aegis from the very beginning of my career, every captain that I dealt with had a standard "wake me up if any contact has a CPA of 10,000 yards or less" advisory in their night orders. Additionally, we are talking about a ship that has some of the best maritime radars installed aboard. I have seen SPY-1 tracking cars on bridges, there no way they were not tracking that big merchant. I strongly suspect that this is the fault of the Fitzgerald.
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  #52  
Old 19 Jun 17, 13:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
Aegis cruisers and destroyers can go from flank three (pedal to the metal full speed for you landlubbers) to full stop in one and a half times the length of the ship; approximately 1,800 feet. I strongly doubt that the Fitzgerald was doing flank three when this happened. Moreover, the entire time that I sailed with the U.S. Navy, and I was assigned to Aegis from the very beginning of my career, every captain that I dealt with had a standard "wake me up if any contact has a CPA of 10,000 yards or less" advisory in their night orders. Additionally, we are talking about a ship that has some of the best maritime radars installed aboard. I have seen SPY-1 tracking cars on bridges, there no way they were not tracking that big merchant. I strongly suspect that this is the fault of the Fitzgerald.
I just read the same thing on another forum
once the CO is up, gets information/etc, how much closer would the contact be? much closer, correct? especially if paths are somewhat head on? but is there enough distance to correct any problems?
how many yards per minute with total of both ships --say--35 knots? 1200?

another question--if both ships appears heading right at each other--which goes to starboard? the smaller, faster one, correct? but how do you tell at night?...if within 5000 yards, what if one goes port and the other starboard?
then it takes a little time to figure out both turned into each other--then time is further lost .....collision

Last edited by Moulin; 19 Jun 17 at 13:56..
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  #53  
Old 19 Jun 17, 13:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
I just read the same thing on another forum
once the CO is up, gets information/etc, how much closer would the contact be? much closer, correct? especially if paths are somewhat head on? but is there enough distance to correct any problems?
how many yards per minute with total of both ships --say--35 knots? 1200?
At 10,000 yds? Plenty. IIRC 5 knots (nautical miles per hour) is about 10,000 yards per hour. So 35 knots would give about 1/7 h.
Quote:
another question--if both ships appears heading right at each other--which goes to starboard? the smaller, faster one, correct? but how do you tell at night?...if within 5000 yards, what if one goes port and the other starboard?
If both follow the rules then they both ought to turn enough starboard (right) so that the passing ship will leave on port (left) side. Like right side traffic.

Last edited by Vaeltaja; 19 Jun 17 at 14:00..
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  #54  
Old 19 Jun 17, 14:01
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At 10,000 yds? Plenty. IIRC 5 knots (nautical miles per hour) is about 10,000 yards per hour. So 35 knots would give about 1/7 h.
thanks for reply
I added some more to that post...what if they are head on--at night--and one goes to starboard and the other port...
with this big tanker, seems like not much time to alter course--after time used to realize both made a mistake
..it's like 2 people walking on the sidewalk and they do the same--one to port and one to starboard ..?? then they both try to correct--and end up bumping...?
how do you tell at night which ship is smaller/faster? that takes time and decisions?
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  #55  
Old 19 Jun 17, 16:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
I will also add that this did not just cost seven Sailors their lives, this collision may very have destined the Fitzgerald for a one way trip to the breakers!
The USS Cole had her side caved in by the bomb on the suicide vessel that had pulled alongside her flooding both main engine compartments. She was put on a barge that was towed back to the shipyard and repaired.

Most likely, the Navy will do the same to the Fitzgerald where the damage section will be cut out, the hull straightened, and be completely repaired.

As a reference, some of the first missile destroyers were converted late WW2 destroyers that were cut in half to add the 40+ foot missile bay sections. As all warships and commercial oceangoing vessels are now all welded construction, It will be no problem for a shipyard to make such repairs.
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  #56  
Old 19 Jun 17, 18:18
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These are very maneuverable ships, seems there has been an unusually high number of incidents in the US Navy lately, that is unacceptable.
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  #57  
Old 19 Jun 17, 18:53
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The Navy has cut back on schooling and has people doing jobs that they are not well qualified for. The training also is not that realistic. They are reducing crew sizes to "save money".

Remember how the Navy used to relieve Captains for running aground after 1918? We had a whole generation of commanders that routinely slowed down at night. The IJN in contrast practiced high speed maneuvers at night, specially selected people with better night vision and developed special night vision gear. The IJN handed us our rear ends off Guadalcanal. My Grandmother lost a brother on the USS Strong there.

The US Navy no longer has sufficient ships to allow us another learning period.

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Old 19 Jun 17, 19:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
The Navy has cut back on schooling and has people doing jobs that they are not well qualified for. The training also is not that realistic. They are reducing crew sizes to "save money".

Remember how the Navy used to relieve Captains for running aground after 1918? We had a whole generation of commanders that routinely slowed down at night. The IJN in contrast practiced high speed maneuvers at night, specially selected people with better night vision and developed special night vision gear. The IJN handed us our rear ends off Guadalcanal. My Grandmother lost a brother on the USS Strong there.

The US Navy no longer has sufficient ships to allow us another learning period.

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Old 19 Jun 17, 20:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
I was on 4 Gator ships USMC..we had USMC guards about the ship when we were in port....we had MG posts starboard and port while underway when we were off Columbia with Air Force One choppers on board..but that was the only time I remember USMC posts while underway
.....but I never knew anything about the Navy's watches...where and what type of watches do you think they had at 0130, topside and and below? thanks for replies
I'd expect, given newer ships having more remote control, that engineering has in the EOS (Enclosed Operating Station or equivalent) the Engineering Officer of the Watch (EOOW), a Watch Supervisor (1st class or Chief), throttleman (1 or 2), load dispatcher / electrical plant operator, DCPO / "Water king", and a messenger.
The plants would have two or more watchstanders in each one, along with at least one "rover" assigned to handle stuff outside the plants.

How well this team would respond can vary greatly. They could be right on things or it could be a cluster F... This starts with EOOW. I've worked with great ones and ones that were terrible in an emergency. The bad ones are going to do little to nothing in a timely fashion. Their recovery will all be well after the damage is done and the emergency is over. In this case, the one engine room floods solid and if there's progressive flooding, that's still in progress.

A good one, along with the Watch Sup, would have the electrician realign loads, and isolate any bus panels that were damaged or destroyed by the hit. That gives the ship most of its electrical power back quickly.
The Water King would have the surviving plants and rover in the plant realign eductors to pump as much water out of the flooded space(s) as possible and bring all fire pumps available on line to put water over the side.
The throttlemen would be ordered to bring the ship to a stop or reduce speed and secure the plant that was damaged.
Damage control parties would conduct shoring on any weak bulkheads, patch holes to end progressive flooding and rig pumps, educators, or perijets, to the installed overboard hose fittings and begin pumping the flooded space(s). You can see these in the photos of the destroyer. Those streams of water going out of the hull. A space open to the sea and flooded solid is usually left in that state as it's safer than trying to pump it down and getting free surface effect.

Other critical things, the lube oil system needs to be isolated if there's any indication that the damage might allow saltwater into the system. If cross connected, isolate each plant instead. If the electrical load is too great for surviving generators, strip panels of non-vital loads to compensate.

You only use counter flooding if the ship is in danger of capsizing, and then to the minimum extent possible. You first shift tanks and loads if possible instead. This takes a bit longer but doesn't add tonnage and make the ship settle more.

That's a bit on how engineering would respond.
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Old 19 Jun 17, 20:48
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I'd expect, given newer ships having more remote control, that engineering has in the EOS (Enclosed Operating Station or equivalent) the Engineering Officer of the Watch (EOOW), a Watch Supervisor (1st class or Chief), throttleman (1 or 2), load dispatcher / electrical plant operator, DCPO / "Water king", and a messenger.
The plants would have two or more watchstanders in each one, along with at least one "rover" assigned to handle stuff outside the plants.

How well this team would respond can vary greatly. They could be right on things or it could be a cluster F... This starts with EOOW. I've worked with great ones and ones that were terrible in an emergency. The bad ones are going to do little to nothing in a timely fashion. Their recovery will all be well after the damage is done and the emergency is over. In this case, the one engine room floods solid and if there's progressive flooding, that's still in progress.

A good one, along with the Watch Sup, would have the electrician realign loads, and isolate any bus panels that were damaged or destroyed by the hit. That gives the ship most of its electrical power back quickly.
The Water King would have the surviving plants and rover in the plant realign eductors to pump as much water out of the flooded space(s) as possible and bring all fire pumps available on line to put water over the side.
The throttlemen would be ordered to bring the ship to a stop or reduce speed and secure the plant that was damaged.
Damage control parties would conduct shoring on any weak bulkheads, patch holes to end progressive flooding and rig pumps, educators, or perijets, to the installed overboard hose fittings and begin pumping the flooded space(s). You can see these in the photos of the destroyer. Those streams of water going out of the hull. A space open to the sea and flooded solid is usually left in that state as it's safer than trying to pump it down and getting free surface effect.

Other critical things, the lube oil system needs to be isolated if there's any indication that the damage might allow saltwater into the system. If cross connected, isolate each plant instead. If the electrical load is too great for surviving generators, strip panels of non-vital loads to compensate.

You only use counter flooding if the ship is in danger of capsizing, and then to the minimum extent possible. You first shift tanks and loads if possible instead. This takes a bit longer but doesn't add tonnage and make the ship settle more.

That's a bit on how engineering would respond.
thanks for reply
interesting information...good reading
great point on if the team can respond well or not...
now that you mention the saltwater--didn't the Bismarck have salt water in the fuel oil problem from damage in the battle with the Hood??
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