The Purpose of the High Seas Fleet

[Nickuru]

Originally Posted by Glenn239

This is a translation of this page,

http://translate.google.ca/translate...ed=0CDMQ7gEwAA

For 'Imperatriza Marija',

From a distance of nearly 20 kilometers forked the Russian battleship with the third salvo type the enemy ships, the last salvo missed the Goeben's only about 50 meters [2] . The artillery fire of Imperatriza Marija was, it said the Germans out later, so precise that they had to withdraw. The Goeben eluded then at high speed to the superior, but slower Russian Dreadnought. Even up to a distance of about 24 kilometers followed the explosions, the retreating ships.

That's the engagement I'm talking of - Jan 8th, 1916.

There was an earlier encounter Glenn, where the Evstafi outranged the Goeben, in the Black Sea. This was while Andrei Eberhard was still Admiral of the Fleet. Both these events took place before Alexander Kolchak was given command of the Black Sea fleet. He followed a much more aggressive policy than Andrei Eberhard, who was concerned about a fleet in being. Once the dreadnoughts were commisioned the Imperatriza Marja and the Imperatriza Ekaterina ruled the Black Sea. The Goeben was still in serious need of a refit.

[Javaman]

Originally Posted by Dashy

In essence, Jutland was a near Trafalgar, the British could have pasted the Germans, they had the Speed, the Guns and the Numbers, however everything that could possibly go wrong went wrong twice, shoddy shells, tacky cordite procedure and terrible signalling (thanks for reminding me BELGRAVE) led to an altogether less flattering victory.

Hmmm....

As opposed to the Russians supplying the British with a German code book, the British intercepting signals regarding the German operation, bad weather leading to a delay in the operation and mechanical trouble with German U-boats at sea too long and high winds keeping the Zeppelins grounded.

How much more would you like to ignore to make this appear like the British were just so close to another Trafalgar as opposed to a few things falling right for the Germans leading to a German realization of their original plan? Seems to me that the RN went into the Jutland battle with the deck stacked in their favor and came out with a tactical defeat in spite of having the odds with them. Doesn't sound like Trafalgar to me, not even close.

So what if the Russians never gave them a code book and they didn't have critical intelligence on their side?

[Dashy]

Originally Posted by Javaman

Hmmm....

As opposed to the Russians supplying the British with a German code book, the British intercepting signals regarding the German operation, bad weather leading to a delay in the operation and mechanical trouble with German U-boats at sea too long and high winds keeping the Zeppelins grounded.

How much more would you like to ignore to make this appear like the British were just so close to another Trafalgar as opposed to a few things falling right for the Germans leading to a German realization of their original plan? Seems to me that the RN went into the Jutland battle with the deck stacked in their favor and came out with a tactical defeat in spite of having the odds with them. Doesn't sound like Trafalgar to me, not even close.

So what if the Russians never gave them a code book and they didn't have critical intelligence on their side?

I was referring to the battle proper, not preceding events.

But you disagree with my statement that had British shells been functioning the Germans would be decorating the seabed?

[Nickuru]

Originally Posted by Dashy

I was referring to the battle proper, not preceding events.

But you disagree with my statement that had British shells been functioning the Germans would be decorating the seabed?

I do disagree, because of the exceptional compactness, watertight compartments and compacting evreything into as tight a space as possible. The German dreadnoughts took the fire of the entire British fleet crossing its T not once but twice. Their construction of their ships was excellent. Would they have been able to defeat the Royal Navy....doubtful. Especially since the RN had the codebooks from the sunken Magdeburg from 1914. Reinhard Scheer did well to get his fleet back home after inflicting quite a bit of damage.

[Javaman]

Originally Posted by Dashy

I was referring to the battle proper, not preceding events.

But you disagree with my statement that had British shells been functioning the Germans would be decorating the seabed?

The battle proper was shaped by preceding events and weather adversely effected the German Fleet's fortunes, but you filter that out when praising the RN. Why?

The functioning of British shells was of their own making, no? How many years did they have to redress that deficiency? Faulty shells and poor discipline with powder are not small issues.

[Glenn239]

Originally Posted by Dashy

I was referring to the battle proper, not preceding events.

But you disagree with my statement that had British shells been functioning the Germans would be decorating the seabed?

Not really no. To me, the near-run nature of Jutland was always that Scheer somehow managed to allow the Grand Fleet to get between his fleet and Germany late in the day and, despite all odds and only because of incredible RN incomptence, he managed to slip behind the GF to safety that night. I read about Moltke and Seydlitz blundering into the British line, only to be allowed to turn away in the night, and shake my head.

Jellicoe was a great theorists, but Beatty was the man for the job.

[Dashy]

Originally Posted by Javaman

The battle proper was shaped by preceding events and weather adversely effected the German Fleet's fortunes, but you filter that out when praising the RN. Why?

The functioning of British shells was of their own making, no? How many years did they have to redress that deficiency? Faulty shells and poor discipline with powder are not small issues.

I'm stating the British would have owned face, as it were, had they better shells.

is this not the case?

Originally Posted by Nickuru

I do disagree, because of the exceptional compactness, watertight compartments and compacting evreything into as tight a space as possible. The German dreadnoughts took the fire of the entire British fleet crossing its T not once but twice. Their construction of their ships was excellent. Would they have been able to defeat the Royal Navy....doubtful. Especially since the RN had the codebooks from the sunken Magdeburg from 1914. Reinhard Scheer did well to get his fleet back home after inflicting quite a bit of damage.

The construction of their ships was excellent, and British Shells were almost as useful as paper mache when it came to combative purposes, had they been functioning I do believe the Germans would have suffered something fierce, as in had they penetrative caps they could penetrate armour when hitting at oblique angles, something the Germans had on their shells.

as mentioned before, Dreyer, possibly the worlds foremost expert on gunnery at the time (who could arguably be called one of the fathers of modern Fire Control) estimated that the Germans would have lost some 6-7 capital ships had the British Shells been fitted with proper penetrators.

[Glenn239]

Originally Posted by Dashy

I'm stating the British would have owned face, as it were, had they better shells.

is this not the case?

IMO, the shells were not nearly as important as all the British bungling, mistakes, incredible decisions not to open fire on targets nearby at night. It was their incompetence on the field of battle, not their shells, that meant Germany had any claim the next day to a victory.;

The construction of their ships was excellent, and British Shells were almost as useful as paper mache when it came to combative purposes, had they been functioning I do believe the Germans would have suffered something fierce, as in had they penetrative caps they could penetrate armour when hitting at oblique angles, something the Germans had on their shells.

That may be so, but the Germans had rocket fired kamikazes, then they win hands down right? So, in the game of who wins if they have what they didn't have on the day of the battle, its anyone's play.

as mentioned before, Dreyer, possibly the worlds foremost expert on gunnery at the time (who could arguably be called one of the fathers of modern Fire Control) estimated that the Germans would have lost some 6-7 capital ships had the British Shells been fitted with proper penetrators.

Dreyer thinks that 6-7 German ships are sunk by better penetration when not one German battleship was lost to a shell-induced magazine explosion during either world war, and there were next to no engine room or waterline hits on German capital ships at Jutland?

[Javaman]

[QUOTE=Dashy;2456269]I'm stating the British would have owned face, as it were, had they better shells.

is this not the case?/QUOTE]

Actually what I disagreed with what you said initially, which is not what you're saying now:

In essence, Jutland was a near Trafalgar, the British could have pasted the Germans, they had the Speed, the Guns and the Numbers, however everything that could possibly go wrong went wrong twice, shoddy shells, tacky cordite procedure and terrible signalling (thanks for reminding me BELGRAVE) led to an altogether less flattering victory.

Sure, the RN would have come away better off if we magically give them better shells. If the weather were clear and the Germans had Zeppelins scouting for them? What then?

[Full Monty]

Originally Posted by Javaman

Sure, the RN would have come away better off if we magically give them better shells. If the weather were clear and the Germans had Zeppelins scouting for them? What then?

The Germans realise their ruse was rumbled and skedaddle back to port before the battle-cruiser squadrons even catch sight of each other!

[Javaman]

Originally Posted by Full Monty

The Germans realise their ruse was rumbled and skedaddle back to port before the battle-cruiser squadrons even catch sight of each other!

Probably

[Nickuru]

Because of having the German codes and listening in to the increase in traffic over the wireless, the British knew something was up. Under Admiral Friedrich von Ingenohl and after him Admiral Hugo von Pohl the Germans kept a fleet in being. Reinhard Scheer was a much more aggresive commander as recorded in his memoirs, which can be found under archives at the war times journal:

www.wtj.com

Lots of interesting stuff here, enjoy.