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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion > American Revolution

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American Revolution 1763-1789 The birth of a new nation - to commence at the Proclaimation of 1763 to the end of the Articles of Confederation.

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  #121  
Old 11 Mar 16, 19:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
I miss the point- as usual- ?. I presume the " As usual" jibe is because I disagree with you.

Never mind ,please elaborate on the profound point you are making so I won't be accused of ignoring you. (God forbid!)
No, because you're wrong.

The point is that despite all your efforts to polish the Empire, its former colonies honor those who fought against, opposed, and/or were imprisoned by the Empire. For all your tales of patronizing old civil servants looking upon their non-white charges as children who require supervision, there's no counterpart to support it. Those same 'children' renamed the cities and built monuments to those who fought the Empire.
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  #122  
Old 12 Mar 16, 01:18
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Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
No, because you're wrong.

The point is that despite all your efforts to polish the Empire, its former colonies honor those who fought against, opposed, and/or were imprisoned by the Empire. For all your tales of patronizing old civil servants looking upon their non-white charges as children who require supervision, there's no counterpart to support it. Those same 'children' renamed the cities and built monuments to those who fought the Empire.
... and good luck to them. (I wish I was as sure of myself as you appear to be).

As for renaming the cities I've yet to come across an Indian who doesn't regret the passing of the old names of Bombay, Madras and Calcutta for their new names. The only other one that comes to mind is the substitution of Harare for Salisbury: and if you think that the average citizen of Zimbabwe (Rhodesia) is better off under Magabe then you are the one that's wrong- no question.

"Tales of old civil servants"? :they are true: do you really believe I was lying ? But I suppose as you've accused me of being without virtue and integrity because I happened to disagree with you, you probably do.

Coming back to the theme of this thread. "Was the American Revolution a "Just War'". It became so after an interval ,in the same sense as the American Civil War was: because it was exactly that, just "Four score and seven years" previously.
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  #123  
Old 12 Mar 16, 14:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
I was referring to the epic blunder that was the entire Crimean War, getting beaten by the Zulus, getting ejected from Afghan, what's-his-face getting his command wiped out along the Nile, years of hurling hundreds of thousands of lives away in pointless attacks for years, the debacle of Gallipoli, the embarrassment at Jutland, the ejection from France 1940, the ejection from Greece, Crete, the fall of Tobruk, the various humiliations of North Africa, Monty's coming in second in Sicily, his blunder in Market Garden, and the ejection from an entire Empire post-WW2.

The British soldier has always fought like hell. But he has rarely been led well, or to victory.
No, he hasn't, and you didn't even mention some other famous disasters such as the Somme, Paschendale and pretty much the rest of WWI, and let us not forget Dieppe.
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  #124  
Old 13 Mar 16, 11:45
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Originally Posted by frisco17 View Post
The issue I've always had with the just war theory is that it is entirely relative and unenforceable. If everyone agreed on what was and wasn't just there would be no war in the first place.
This is true, however, when either a person or a nation goes to war they should have the higher moral ground if possible. Thus, even though the nation itself did not have the higher moral ground, some of the individuals involved did - and went on to change the course of history.

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  #125  
Old 13 Mar 16, 17:23
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Originally Posted by Theoferrum View Post
This is true, however, when either a person or a nation goes to war they should have the higher moral ground if possible. Thus, even though the nation itself did not have the higher moral ground, some of the individuals involved did - and went on to change the course of history.

Yes, but doesn't possession of the "higher moral ground" depend on where you stand ? In the end it's purely subjective. There's no absolute test to detemine where the Moral High Ground is actually situated.

I'm sure that the Islamic terrorists who infest this planet sincerely believe they possess the Moral High Ground while murdering innocents.
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  #126  
Old 13 Mar 16, 22:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
Yes, but doesn't possession of the "higher moral ground" depend on where you stand ? In the end it's purely subjective. There's no absolute test to detemine where the Moral High Ground is actually situated.

I'm sure that the Islamic terrorists who infest this planet sincerely believe they possess the Moral High Ground while murdering innocents.
Its called your conscience...
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  #127  
Old 14 Mar 16, 04:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Bob View Post
My main point is, if you are going to use Just War Theory, you have to look at it from the perspective of not only were the colonies just in demanding independence even with military force, but also from the perspective of is GB denying them independence via the use of military force just. I think you apply the items of Just War theory jus ad bellum (perhaps key being Right Intention) I think you would find that GB military efforts to deny the colonists independence does not meet Just War requirements.
An interesting change of perspective, save that:

1. it deals with the relationship between England and the colonies as if the latter already were a "legitimate government" and a sovereign power;
2. it shows you are another poster who has not read the paper linked to and object of the discussion.

If you had read it, you would have found that the author makes an example. Suppose one of the many self-proclaimed militias in the USA started stockpiling huge amounts of military-grade weaponry and explosives. Wouldn't it be the right - actually, the duty - of the US government to disarm these criminals and make sure they are no longer a threat to the peace and stability of the country?

Naturally, the US government would today try to employ police rather than military forces, and local forces (say a state's National Guard) rather than federal forces. Unfortunately the English government had not been wise enough to make sure they had such means, or at least not in size and scope sufficient to deal with the threat. They had a hammer and thus saw the problem as a nail.

In other words, you can make a political and policy point concerning the English reaction to the colonists' stockpiling of guns and powder. You could say the English were unwise - not that they were in the wrong. If the Malheur Reserve standoff had been concluded by an assault of the FBI SWAT, you could make a point that it was unwise, not that the US federal government was not in the right.

Note that full-fledged military force against rebels (in the present-day example above, that would mean using the US Army instead of the FBI) is outdated today, but it was the stock reaction back then. You don't need to look very far in time or place: look up the whiskey rebellion. The US sent more than ten thousands of its soldiers to deal with a few hundred tax dodgers. I don't think you could argue that one even has to consider whether the principles of just war should apply to this US governmental decision.
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  #128  
Old 22 Mar 16, 18:40
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Originally Posted by Michele View Post
So you are another poster who did not understand the terms of the problem and did not read the paper.
I know what it's like to be ruled by an unpopular foreign government - or do you want to go back to being ruled by the Austrians again ?
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  #129  
Old 22 Mar 16, 18:46
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Originally Posted by the ace View Post
I know what it's like to be ruled by an unpopular foreign government - or do you want to go back to being ruled by the Austrians again ?
"Unpopular Foreign Government ? " Was there not a referendum recently in Scotland to settle that question ?

(Which is more than the American colonists had, it must be said).
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  #130  
Old 22 Mar 16, 18:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theoferrum View Post
Its called your conscience...
Really ? But isn't it precisely the same as perception of what is, or is not, "The High Moral Ground" ?

Everybody's individual conscience is formed as the result of social and religious conditioning and ,perhaps, personal experience. There's no such thing as a common conscience. As I mentioned previously, if there were such a thing as a universal conscience then the terrorists who murder indiscriminately in the name of Islam would suffer horribly as a result of their deeds.

I'll bet they don't.
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  #131  
Old 23 Mar 16, 12:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the ace View Post
I know what it's like to be ruled by an unpopular foreign government - or do you want to go back to being ruled by the Austrians again ?
Further evidence you didn't read the paper and don't know what is being discussed here. What the colonists wanted with regard to British rule or what I want with regard to Austrian rule is neither here nor there.

If you want to look at your own courtyard, look at how Robert the Bruce, right after committing a sacrilegous murder, made sure he had the endorsement of the Scottish Church and had himself crowned king according to tradition and with all formalities. He evidently had a clear notion of one, if not the first, of the principles for waging just war: i.e. having legitimate authority.

That is but one of the parameters, the others you may find in that paper or in any decent treatment of the matter. If you want to go a good way back, but not all the way to the Romans, you might look for some summary of Grotius's tack of this all.
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  #132  
Old 24 Mar 16, 13:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
"Unpopular Foreign Government ? " Was there not a referendum recently in Scotland to settle that question ?

(Which is more than the American colonists had, it must be said).
Referendum, yes, settlement, no;

In the 2015 General Election, the pro-independence SNP took 50% of the vote and 56 out of 59 Scottish parliamentary seats (the discrepancy shows just how skewed the UK electoral system is, ironically, the SNP still want to change it).

"The National," a pro-independence daily newspaper, was launched in November 2014 - it has quickly become one of the strongest-selling titles in Scotland.

Support for independence has steadily increased since the referendum, and is now hovering around the 51% mark.

Scotland goes to the polls on 5th May this year - the bookies aren't even taking bets that Nicola Sturgeon will be returned as First Minister with an increased majority (in a Parliamentary system designed to block any type of majority). Labour (roughly the same as yours) and the Conservatives (like your Liberals) have already conceded that they're fighting for second place, with a real fear that the Conservatives (despised in Scotland) may actually pip Labour into becoming the main opposition party. Nobody cares what happens to the Lib/Dems.

The calls for Indyref2 are intensifying (and that's even before the EU vote - on a knife-edge in England, but Scotland is 2- or 3:1 (depending on who you ask) in favour of remaining), but Sturgeon is a consummate politician (she learned from the master and is a worthy successor) and won't go down that road until we're ready - it could be only a matter of time.

The general feeling here is that Scotland WILL be independent, and quite soon.
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  #133  
Old 24 Mar 16, 15:31
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Sorry for the double post but;

Today would've been the day we declared independence - https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2...uld-have-been/


THE PAIN

Why are you crying Granny are you suffering from a pain?
That question went unanswered as my tears fell down like rain
The child then listened quietly to the story he was told
I voted for your future for a country you could mould
But my dream was sadly shattered, and yes, I have a pain
Your life would be so different, you had so much to gain

Let me tell you what was lost to you, to what we threw away
For like a fortune teller I could see the price wed pay
A rage burns in my belly, its often hard to cope
Knowing those less able have been robbed of any hope
The sick, the poor, disabled, and folk with no abode
I could see that those with nothing would have to bear the load
Theyve now been left to sink or swim and no one seems to care
I find as each day passes its just too much to bear

The chance to have your nation, to stand, so proud and tall
To care and share your riches, to lift up those who fall
I knew the road would twist and turn wed sail on stormy seas
For you my child I didnt care, Id crawl on hands and knees
No riches do I want nor need, but in my heart I crave
A life for you so different if only wed been brave
The dream was not for me alone for now I am too old
My independence gift to you was worth much more than gold
So that is why Im crying but your time will come once more
And when it does you grab it and let your spirit soar.

The Author only identified herself as, "Margaret."
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  #134  
Old 24 Mar 16, 17:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the ace View Post
Referendum, yes, settlement, no;

In the 2015 General Election, the pro-independence SNP took 50% of the vote and 56 out of 59 Scottish parliamentary seats (the discrepancy shows just how skewed the UK electoral system is, ironically, the SNP still want to change it).

"The National," a pro-independence daily newspaper, was launched in November 2014 - it has quickly become one of the strongest-selling titles in Scotland.

Support for independence has steadily increased since the referendum, and is now hovering around the 51% mark.

Scotland goes to the polls on 5th May this year - the bookies aren't even taking bets that Nicola Sturgeon will be returned as First Minister with an increased majority (in a Parliamentary system designed to block any type of majority). Labour (roughly the same as yours) and the Conservatives (like your Liberals) have already conceded that they're fighting for second place, with a real fear that the Conservatives (despised in Scotland) may actually pip Labour into becoming the main opposition party. Nobody cares what happens to the Lib/Dems.

The calls for Indyref2 are intensifying (and that's even before the EU vote - on a knife-edge in England, but Scotland is 2- or 3:1 (depending on who you ask) in favour of remaining), but Sturgeon is a consummate politician (she learned from the master and is a worthy successor) and won't go down that road until we're ready - it could be only a matter of time.

The general feeling here is that Scotland WILL be independent, and quite soon.
So be it. If it comes to pass I hope it all works out as you hope.
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  #135  
Old 29 Mar 16, 19:26
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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
Really ? But isn't it precisely the same as perception of what is, or is not, "The High Moral Ground" ?

Everybody's individual conscience is formed as the result of social and religious conditioning and ,perhaps, personal experience. There's no such thing as a common conscience. As I mentioned previously, if there were such a thing as a universal conscience then the terrorists who murder indiscriminately in the name of Islam would suffer horribly as a result of their deeds.

I'll bet they don't.
I disagree - everyone has a conscience but it is the social and religious conditioning that causes people to ignore (or not) said conscience - this is one of the things that separate men from animals.
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