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  #196  
Old 07 Dec 17, 16:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
Some of you keep talking that we need more cheaper ships, but do we really? Back in the good ole days we had 27 Spruances and 51 Perrys. Now we have 66 much more capable Burkes with eight more on the way. Where's the shortfall?
the ridiculous waste of money is quite the short fall in a nation that's trillions of dollars in debt and a navy that can't afford to train its sailors.

you keep talking like the burkes are some god send end all be all of maritime warfare and combat
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  #197  
Old 07 Dec 17, 17:28
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Originally Posted by General_Jacke View Post
the ridiculous waste of money is quite the short fall in a nation that's trillions of dollars in debt and a navy that can't afford to train its sailors.

you keep talking like the burkes are some god send end all be all of maritime warfare and combat
No, but we already have the Burkes, so why not use them. They are much better than the Spruances and Perrys. We have enough ships, we just have too many politicians that want us everywhere, 24/7.
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  #198  
Old 07 Dec 17, 19:27
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Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
No, but we already have the Burkes, so why not use them. They are much better than the Spruances and Perrys. We have enough ships, we just have too many politicians that want us everywhere, 24/7.
we are using them, but why build more? the president has a plan with a lot of support in congress to get a navy with over 300 hulls in the water, why build more expensive ships that are going to spend the majority of their life cycles doing jobs that completely waste their potential, like making a navy SEAL an armed mall cop.
yes we should be dialing back operations, i agree, but since that isn't happening more hulls that are not as expensive will save money allowing for more training resulting in more capable sailors, and less fatigue and strain on the sailors resulting in fewer mistakes and deaths.

you seem to be thinking cheap like chinese happy meal toy 'cheap' rather than affordable.

as i have said before the OHPs were very survivable at 4100tons, and the navy is looking for something in the ball park of 5,000-6,000tons now so it will be even more survivable than the OHPs as well as even more capable.

we'll have a ship that can do pretty much everything an AB can do, it just won't be able to do as much of it. the only real difference in capability is magazine space. a single stack compact 9mm is just as good at shooting and killing or wounding as a full sized 9mm, the full size will just likely have more magazine capacity to do so for longer. we're talking a compact glock, vs. kimber 1911.
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  #199  
Old 08 Dec 17, 00:08
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From the 90-day gunboats of the Civil War to the DEs of WW2 to the Brown Water flotilla of Vietnam, the USN has always had to launch a crash program to build large numbers of smaller ships than what they had in their inventory pre-war.

Happens every time, and sometimes (see the Eagle Boats) the whole program comes too late.

But it is interesting to see what the mind-set that leads to such last-minute emergencies looks like. I guess it will always be the same, why bother sounding an alarm in a tone-deaf world?

BTW- the Harrier was obsolete the day it was conceived, compared to standard fighters. The only thing that has ever set it apart is the fact that it can operate where normal fighters cannot... and they still can't.
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  #200  
Old 08 Dec 17, 03:46
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Here is one point I haven't yet seen a proper answer given. What would be the most likely location where these ships would see service and how that effects the ships layout?
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  #201  
Old 08 Dec 17, 05:34
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The US Navy sends ships through the Atlantic, Pacific and Indian Oceans. They can be seen in the Mediterranean, Persian Gulf, South China Sea and the East China Sea. The LCS class was supposed to be more of a Brown Water force but now they are trying to say they can do Blue Water Duty? They are going to have to prove that one to me!

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  #202  
Old 08 Dec 17, 08:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senorankka View Post
Here is one point I haven't yet seen a proper answer given. What would be the most likely location where these ships would see service and how that effects the ships layout?
Indeed. The answer to that question has huge implications on the whole ship design



My whole 'escort frigate' concept was based on assumptions related on those things. Basically, the ship would be optimized for escort duty and be active in areas where surface threats are not likely - since they are slowest and least elusive of the potential threats - i assumed it would not be unreasonable to expect USN to be able to react and provide support in case something goes awry.

Which of course means that what i suggested would be rather poorly suited to operating alone in high threat areas - like Straits of Hormuz, Persian Gulf or the like. And that it would be even more poorly suited to providing naval artillery support. But it could free other ships to do that - after all even a 'local' crisis with Iran would likely lead to the whole of the Indian Ocean being a war zone, but not every spot or role would require a Tico or a Burke. Basically just a modern revisit to doing the same as what role the WWII era corvettes/frigates/PGs/DEs in the end did but without the bloat that has crept into modern 'multipurpose' designs.
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  #203  
Old 08 Dec 17, 08:45
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Cool ...more professionalism less socialism...

All this tech-nav speak regarding tonnage, hull size, armament, number of vessels, deployment characteristics, brown vs. blue water, yadayadayada doesn't add up to a load of whale poop if the personnel manning said whiz-bang fighting ships are not properly trained and dedicated to duty. Witness the calamitous series of events recently in the 7th fleet where a ship's ability to survive depends, unfortunately, not on how many missile strikes it can survive but how quickly it can do damage control and recover from even a small collision with a container carrier.
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  #204  
Old 08 Dec 17, 09:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
- is a cheap Destroyer.

The uber-sophisticated Independence and Freedom class ships were supposed to replace the O.H. Perry class frigates... all 50 of them.
I think we have gone over their failings often enough, and the insane costs associated with them. I propose taking a step back and building something that can be kicked out in larger numbers based on a hull as tough as the old OHPs yet with firepower enough to do some real damage.
I said it before and I will say it again, for virtually the same cost as the previously mentioned floating targets we could go for the Dutch Zeven Provincien class frigates. I will also point out that I know from long personal experience that one of the most widely used systems aboard modern warships are the helicopters; the hangars need to stay.

Dimensions and displacement
Length 144.2 m
Beam 18.8 m
Draught 5.2 m
Displacement, standard ?
Displacement, full load 6 048 tons
Propulsion and speed
Speed 28 knots
Range 9 250 km at 18 knots
Propulsion CODOG with two Rolls-Royce Spey SM1C gas turbines, delivering 52 300 shp and two Stork-Wartsila 16V 26 ST diesels delivering 13 600 shp to two shafts
Aircraft
Helicopters 1 x Lynx or NFH 90
Armament
Artillery 1 x 127-mmgun, 2 x 30-mm CIWS, 2 x 20-mm cannon
Missiles 8 x Harpoon anti-ship missiles, one 40-cell Mk.41 vertical launch system for SM-2MR and ESSM surface-to-air missiles
Torpedoes 2 x twin 324-mm Mk.32 launchers for Mk.46 anti-submarine torpedoes



http://www.military-today.com/navy/d...cien_class.htm
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  #205  
Old 08 Dec 17, 12:15
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I agree with Bass Man. Another good choice would be the Nowegian Nansen, Spanish de Bazan and Australian Hobart classes, all built on the same hull design. There's no reason to redesign the wheel.

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  #206  
Old 08 Dec 17, 20:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senorankka View Post
Here is one point I haven't yet seen a proper answer given. What would be the most likely location where these ships would see service and how that effects the ships layout?
literally every where we're sending DDGs that could be better used else where like the horn of africa, black sea, red sea, Mediterranean sea, gulf, pacific, atlantic, indian ocean...

any where that fleet support ships would go, any where that there might be a danger to shipping...

10 per coast, deploy one with the CBGs so you have 1 Tico, 2 DDGs, and 1 FFG as escorts, and then you can have 4 deployed independently and 5 back in maintenance/training periods.

i'm pretty sure we've already mentioned this some where on here already.
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  #207  
Old 10 Dec 17, 14:11
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My thought on the low and lower classes of escort vessels goes towards this end, first with the Bottom end:

Corvette:

600 tons
32kt top speed, 20 cruising
2500nm range

Helipad for SH60, or hangar/helipad for a smaller helicopter

40mm Oto Melara Dual-Purpose gun
30mm Goalkeeper CIWS
Mk41 Mod 16 (8 cells)(ASROC, Sea Sparrow primarily, possibility of TLAM)
4 x Harpoon (provision to remove and replace with SeaRAM if new ASM developed is VLS compatible)

Crew: 45+10 Aircrew and related rates

Yes, small crew, but it's actually a Small Ship. It's made to be inexpensive, yet maintain self defense capability and be able to function as a long-range patrol ship, counterinsurgency/piracy ship, and escort. The helo can provide ASW capability, or the ship can use ASROC to do so. Possible subclass without helo facilities could include a second Mk41 Mod 16 and SeaRAM as standard equipment to make it a surface escort/combatant.
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  #208  
Old 10 Dec 17, 16:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass_Man86 View Post
I said it before and I will say it again, for virtually the same cost as the previously mentioned floating targets we could go for the Dutch Zeven Provincien class frigates...
I like that one!
But, what I don't like is the price-tag; over 800 million per copy, and that was over a dozen years ago.
Good for the mid-range area, but not so much for what I was looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by General_Jacke View Post
...
i'm pretty sure we've already mentioned this some where on here already.
And I have mentioned Three very specific hot-spots already, several time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
My thought on the low and lower classes of escort vessels goes towards this end, first with the Bottom end:

Corvette:
I like that one too, but can you really get all that in a 600-ton hull?
How see-worthy would it be? The South China sea can be a rough place, it was the only place I cam near to being sea-sick during 6 months on a LHA.


What we have now-


Aircraft carrier - 11
Amphibious assault ship - 9
Amphibious command ship - 2
(all of the above would require escorts in a combat area)
Amphibious transport dock - 10
Attack submarine 52
Ballistic missile submarine - 14
Cruiser - 22
Destroyer - 65
Dock landing ship - 12
Cruise missile submarine - 4
Littoral combat ship - 9
Mine countermeasures ship - 11
Patrol boat - 13
Submarine tender - 2
Expeditionary mobile base - 1


Going by the examples of Carriers and Subs, only 1/3rd of that will be at sea at any one time.
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  #209  
Old 10 Dec 17, 18:33
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Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
I like that one!
But, what I don't like is the price-tag; over 800 million per copy, and that was over a dozen years ago.
Well... The same issue is with the other presented examples of multiroleships. Listed cost of a Hobart is even higher than that of an Arleigh Burke class. Of course economies of scale do affect that but it wouldn't be much of a change.
Quote:
And I have mentioned Three very specific hot-spots already, several time.
Sure. But if you want to have a multi-role ship that can operate in all conditions in such areas you really should not be considering an option where you can it cheaply. It it is just not in any manner realistic to do so.
Quote:
I like that one too, but can you really get all that in a 600-ton hull?
How see-worthy would it be?
The short answer is that 'you don't'. Unless you want to have its keel pointing towards the sky that is.

What was posted seems to have been a sort of a variant of Israeli Sa'ar style corvettes/missile boats with certain unrealistic assumptions. For example - assuming the listed data is in some manner reliable the draft of those ships is less than 3 meters. If you tried to fit a full length Mk 41 on it the ship would be severely unbalanced as installing 8 meter long stacks into a such a hull would make it top heavy all by itself. It is worth keeping in mind that Israeli Barak 1 VLS thing is about the same as RIM-116.
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Old 10 Dec 17, 21:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
What was posted seems to have been a sort of a variant of Israeli Sa'ar style corvettes/missile boats with certain unrealistic assumptions. For example - assuming the listed data is in some manner reliable the draft of those ships is less than 3 meters. If you tried to fit a full length Mk 41 on it the ship would be severely unbalanced as installing 8 meter long stacks into a such a hull would make it top heavy all by itself. It is worth keeping in mind that Israeli Barak 1 VLS thing is about the same as RIM-116.
Draft isn't the same as deck height plus draft. Anyway there are systems that aren't as long as the full up Mk41 systems on the Burkes. Hence I specifically noted a mod that is shorter and can't carry the longest missiles. However, you might have to go with the Mk48 or Mk56 VLS, although ideally you want a system with enough space to allow you to launch whatever the planned lightweight ASM will be in the future.

As for the 'base', you are correct, I took a Saar 4.5 and did a rough +25% to tonnage in order to stretch out that range a bit and give more deck space for the helo. The first run of the 4.5s was pretty dedicated as a helo platform, I think a stretch version would give enough space for its own kit.

I do think a 600t class is a good utility hull for things like anti piracy, counter insurgency, utility work in the Caribbean and Med, operations in the Gulf or that area, etc. I wouldn't put them in the Pacific Fleet except maybe for working in the areas specifically around the Archipelagos. Would be a good ship for operations around the Philippines and such.

To answer Exo, no, it's not a high seas warship. But neither are convoys of transports. And the one thing that the whole LCS fiasco got right was that a Burke is really both overkill and too valuable to spend much time playing in littoral waters. I think that a corvette this size is the right ship to be doing those things.

To take the concept a bit further, I might make the change to split between a dedicated ASW escort vessel and a AAW/AsuW ship.

The way to make that change would be to eliminate the helicopter facilities, aside from landing pad, on the latter version in favor of a maximum of tubes for ESSM, Harpoon, etc. What you want is a small nasty fighter with as much of a punch as you can pack into her, while still remaining affordable.

And on the former to pull the radar and such needed for running efficient AAW operations, expanded aviation facilities, and delete the 40mm gun, Harpoon, and VLS (if they're too short for ASROC). Instead mount torpedo tubes (would actually be interesting if someone would make tubes capable of running the Mk48 off a ship which would give it ASW and AsuW viable options), ASROC launcher forward, and SEARam to go with the CIWS as self-defense.
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Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene
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