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Africa Issues of modern Africa.

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  #46  
Old 25 Oct 13, 08:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
That's not exactly correct. There was no organized Somali military so everyone on the warlord side is legally a civilian. Therefore all of the dead Somalis were "civilians". It seems like a minor point but it is really an underlying factor in making an "accurate" count of casualties hopelessly subjective.

Some of dead women and kids were probably carrying ammo for their faction's fighters. Some of the dead military age males were standing in the wrong place at the wrong time and caught a stray bullet. There isn't much point arguing about it because no one will ever know the full story of each and every one who died.
Were they an organised militia?
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  #47  
Old 25 Oct 13, 09:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Were they an organised militia?
Some were. Other, not so much.
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  #48  
Old 25 Oct 13, 10:34
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A armed civlian is a legal target during war no matter age or gender.

Most armed groups(not I saide groups not people) in somlia and countries like it (sudan, chad, DRC, mali, libya certain parts of ethopya extra) are bandits though many times it is hard to tell them apart.
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  #49  
Old 25 Oct 13, 16:25
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I have this documentary: http://www.amazon.com/The-Battle-Bla...ords=paul+howe

I thought it was informative and entertaining. I recommend it for those who would like one soldier's "grunt's eye" view.

Preview here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCf_EP-w4fs

The preview is an introduction. Howe moves on into details of the mission as he experienced them.

Even if you don't agree with him, Master Sergeant Howe is a BTDT real deal special operations soldier.
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  #50  
Old 25 Oct 13, 16:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewza View Post
A armed civlian is a legal target during war no matter age or gender.

Most armed groups(not I saide groups not people) in somlia and countries like it (sudan, chad, DRC, mali, libya certain parts of ethopya extra) are bandits though many times it is hard to tell them apart.
And who said they weren't?

Paul
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  #51  
Old 25 Oct 13, 18:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
And who said they weren't?

Paul
Just pointing out it does not matter they were civlians.
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  #52  
Old 25 Oct 13, 21:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewza View Post
A armed civlian is a legal target during war no matter age or gender.

Most armed groups(not I saide groups not people) in somlia and countries like it (sudan, chad, DRC, mali, libya certain parts of ethopya extra) are bandits though many times it is hard to tell them apart.
The distinction here is that once his buddies take all of his gear and drop the body at morgue, he looks just like any other dead civilian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
And who said they weren't?

Paul
Generally propagandists for al Qaeda and al Shabahb, pacifist human rights groups who can't get their heads around the idea that force really can't be avoided in many cases, plus the usual crowd of back-row critics for whom the US can do no right. IOW 'the usual suspects'.

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Originally Posted by andrewza View Post
Just pointing out it does not matter they were civlians.
It always matters to someone.
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  #53  
Old 25 Oct 13, 21:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
The distinction here is that once his buddies take all of his gear and drop the body at morgue, he looks just like any other dead civilian.



Generally propagandists for al Qaeda and al Shabahb, pacifist human rights groups who can't get their heads around the idea that force really can't be avoided in many cases, plus the usual crowd of back-row critics for whom the US can do no right. IOW 'the usual suspects'.



It always matters to someone.

All true
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  #54  
Old 25 Oct 13, 21:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
The distinction here is that once his buddies take all of his gear and drop the body at morgue, he looks just like any other dead civilian.
Any evidence of this happening in the case of the action in Mogadishu?

Quote:
Generally propagandists for al Qaeda and al Shabahb, pacifist human rights groups who can't get their heads around the idea that force really can't be avoided in many cases, plus the usual crowd of back-row critics for whom the US can do no right. IOW 'the usual suspects'.
And prey, who may those 'usual suspects' be....No need to whistle.

Paul
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  #55  
Old 25 Oct 13, 21:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
Any evidence of this happening in the case of the action in Mogadishu?
It's happened in every other irregular war ever reported on. Do you have evidence it did not happen in Somalia? Irregular gunmen don't carry ID and don't leave valuable weapons and ammo lying around unused in the midst of a pitched battle.

KIA range of 350 - 850? Total wounded 1500 - 4000? Pretty clear evidence that some people are counting apples while others are counting oranges. Not very helpful unless you've got some mayo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
And prey, who may those 'usual suspects' be....No need to whistle.

Paul
Since I named the first two in the post above, you should have no difficulty adding to the list. Besides, I felt like music.
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  #56  
Old 25 Oct 13, 22:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
It's happened in every other irregular war ever reported on. Do you have evidence it did not happen in Somalia? Irregular gunmen don't carry ID and don't leave valuable weapons and ammo lying around unused in the midst of a pitched battle.

KIA range of 350 - 850? Total wounded 1500 - 4000? Pretty clear evidence that some people are counting apples while others are counting oranges. Not very helpful unless you've got some mayo.
Yeah But that diatribe of yours is no evidence at all!

Quote:
Since I named the first two in the post above, you should have no difficulty adding to the list. Besides, I felt like music.
Well, well! there's me thinking that seeing as it was you who made the 'usual suspects' statement that you would not be afraid to let me in on who 'they' are.

Quote:
I felt like music.
You really should get over listening to white noise.

Paul
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  #57  
Old 26 Oct 13, 16:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copenhagen View Post
Were they an organised militia?
Depends upon which definition is in use. At one time in U.S. history "organized militia" actually meant the entire adult male population of military age."

If you are wondering, the "organized" militia was known as the "standing militia."

Regards,

Michael
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  #58  
Old 28 Oct 13, 19:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
So the Somali number of 350 is unreliable? If the sources for that figure can be proved as a lie, I would like to see the evidence. The same as I would like to see the evidence for the 800-1,500 + figure and that all those killed were armed fighters. There may well have been over 1,500 killed and wounded but I bet that many of them were civilians wounded/killed in the crossfire, with the majority being wounded.

As for the evidence!....Hmmm! I'm not holding my breath.

Paul
The perception of the Somali source lack of reliability must have come from somewhere.

While I won't argue with you about total reliability of numbers even Somali sources will agree that drawing the line between the militias and uninvolved civilians, most of whom would also have been armed with AKs and RPGs would have been nearly impossible to determined.

I would expect that there were aerial and satellite images of bodies which were part of the calculus.
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  #59  
Old 28 Oct 13, 20:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
That's not exactly correct. There was no organized Somali military so everyone on the warlord side is legally a civilian. Therefore all of the dead Somalis were "civilians". It seems like a minor point but it is really an underlying factor in making an "accurate" count of casualties hopelessly subjective.

Some of dead women and kids were probably carrying ammo for their faction's fighters. Some of the dead military age males were standing in the wrong place at the wrong time and caught a stray bullet. There isn't much point arguing about it because no one will ever know the full story of each and every one who died.
This is a very good clarification.

I am presuming that some Somali civilians were killed in the firefight by US forces so I hope nobody mistakes my assumption otherwise. OTOH

I am unaware and dubious of the existence of a strategy of "kill anything that moves" on the part of US forces and even the Pakistani UN forces who were there are unlikely to so say anything favorable about the Somalis.
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Last edited by Cyberknight; 29 Oct 13 at 13:11..
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