HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Warfare by Other Means > Spy Wars

Notices and Announcements

Spy Wars Reconnaissance, deception and intelligence are all vital aspects of warfare, ancient and modern - discuss these aspects here!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12 Dec 17, 10:43
MarkV's Avatar
MarkV MarkV is offline
General of the Forums
UK
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Tenbury Wells
Posts: 13,389
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
How important is concealing methods?

Watched a documentary last night on the bugging of the captured German Generals and other POWs during WW2. The transcripts of some of the conversations were chilling and gave the lie to the idea that it was only the Waffen SS who carried out war crimes. The ordinary German soldiers including some of these Generals had been up to their necks in it too. After the war ended Churchill wanted to use the recorded conversations to bring these men to trial but MI9 considered that this would involve revealing their methods. By the time a decision was made Churchill was no longer PM and the recordings appear to have been destroyed and the transcripts classified as highly secret and buried in the archives. None of the Generals was prosecuted even though by their own admissions some of them had been involved in the murder of tens of thousands.

The methods and technology were put to use in the early years of the Cold War

Was this decision a good one?
__________________
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)
Reply With Quote
Facebook Connect and Magazine Promotions

World War II Magazine
$26.95

Armchair General Magazine
$26.95
Military History Magazine
$26.95
  #2  
Old 12 Dec 17, 10:51
Arnold J Rimmer's Avatar
Arnold J Rimmer Arnold J Rimmer is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Red Dwarf
Posts: 23,680
Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
I would think so.

Law enforcement in the USA has used electronic eavesdropping on subjects who thought they were in a secure setting for decades.

One of the simplest has been the inclusion of video and audio recording of the prisoner area of a patrol car. Many times I've had my guys put two suspects in the same car, and they talking about their chances, crimes we didn't know about, and similar topics.
__________________
Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12 Dec 17, 16:38
DARKPLACE's Avatar
DARKPLACE DARKPLACE is offline
General
France
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: HALIFAX
Posts: 5,225
DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700]
DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Watched a documentary last night on the bugging of the captured German Generals and other POWs during WW2. The transcripts of some of the conversations were chilling and gave the lie to the idea that it was only the Waffen SS who carried out war crimes. The ordinary German soldiers including some of these Generals had been up to their necks in it too. After the war ended Churchill wanted to use the recorded conversations to bring these men to trial but MI9 considered that this would involve revealing their methods. By the time a decision was made Churchill was no longer PM and the recordings appear to have been destroyed and the transcripts classified as highly secret and buried in the archives. None of the Generals was prosecuted even though by their own admissions some of them had been involved in the murder of tens of thousands.

The methods and technology were put to use in the early years of the Cold War

Was this decision a good one?
Yes. Imo. These days you'd have to be fairly naive to not think that the rooms you are in are not bugged. In the forties though it wasn't expected as a matter of routine.
__________________
"Sometimes its better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness" T Pratchett
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12 Dec 17, 17:00
Arnold J Rimmer's Avatar
Arnold J Rimmer Arnold J Rimmer is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Red Dwarf
Posts: 23,680
Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKPLACE View Post
Yes. Imo. These days you'd have to be fairly naive to not think that the rooms you are in are not bugged. In the forties though it wasn't expected as a matter of routine.
Stupid is the word, not naive, but you would be surprised at how many still fall for it.
__________________
Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 17 Dec 17, 11:46
DARKPLACE's Avatar
DARKPLACE DARKPLACE is offline
General
France
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: HALIFAX
Posts: 5,225
DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700]
DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
Stupid is the word, not naive, but you would be surprised at how many still fall for it.
I can live with stupid. I read a book years ago about the airwar in Europe it mentioned a lufftwaffe officer who interrogated captured allied airmen. He just used to arrive with a supply of tea and coffee and behaved pleasantly. Generally, and despite all the training most of the time the airmen started talking within thirty minutes and quite quickly gave up everything.
__________________
"Sometimes its better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness" T Pratchett
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 17 Dec 17, 13:36
MarkV's Avatar
MarkV MarkV is offline
General of the Forums
UK
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Tenbury Wells
Posts: 13,389
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKPLACE View Post
I can live with stupid. I read a book years ago about the airwar in Europe it mentioned a lufftwaffe officer who interrogated captured allied airmen. He just used to arrive with a supply of tea and coffee and behaved pleasantly. Generally, and despite all the training most of the time the airmen started talking within thirty minutes and quite quickly gave up everything.
Although a few provided useful (from the Allies view point) false information often leading the Germans down quite wasteful and counter productive development paths - for example the man who told his interrogator that U boats were being detected by leakage from a longer wave radar detector when in fact it was due to the use of Centimetric radar by the RAF. The Germans spent vast amounts of effort sealing kit that was obsolete and ignoring the real threat. In fact they seem to have learnt very little about the real threats. On the lighter side the story always amuses about the guy who convinced the Luftwaffe that he'd been in a new bomber powered by Huntley Palmer engines with Cross and Blackwell turrets (for the Johnathan's Huntley Palmer make biscuits and Cross & Blackwell soup). The Luftwaffe really weren't very good at scientific intelligence.

The question I was asking in the OP was is it right to fail to prosecute war criminals of the Eichmann level in order to preserve intelligence techniques. Mr Rimmer obviously thinks it is.
__________________
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 17 Dec 17, 14:13
Arnold J Rimmer's Avatar
Arnold J Rimmer Arnold J Rimmer is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role  Aircraft 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Red Dwarf
Posts: 23,680
Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Arnold J Rimmer has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKPLACE View Post
I can live with stupid. I read a book years ago about the airwar in Europe it mentioned a lufftwaffe officer who interrogated captured allied airmen. He just used to arrive with a supply of tea and coffee and behaved pleasantly. Generally, and despite all the training most of the time the airmen started talking within thirty minutes and quite quickly gave up everything.
One of the keys of interrogation is that once people start talking, it is very difficult to stop talking.

One of the things we did was once we read a subject his rights we immediately started BS'ing about something completely unrelated to the topic. Get him or her just chatting, then ease over to the matter at hand.

It works.
__________________
Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 19 Dec 17, 02:09
DARKPLACE's Avatar
DARKPLACE DARKPLACE is offline
General
France
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: HALIFAX
Posts: 5,225
DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700]
DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700] DARKPLACE is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Although a few provided useful (from the Allies view point) false information often leading the Germans down quite wasteful and counter productive development paths - for example the man who told his interrogator that U boats were being detected by leakage from a longer wave radar detector when in fact it was due to the use of Centimetric radar by the RAF. The Germans spent vast amounts of effort sealing kit that was obsolete and ignoring the real threat. In fact they seem to have learnt very little about the real threats. On the lighter side the story always amuses about the guy who convinced the Luftwaffe that he'd been in a new bomber powered by Huntley Palmer engines with Cross and Blackwell turrets (for the Johnathan's Huntley Palmer make biscuits and Cross & Blackwell soup). The Luftwaffe really weren't very good at scientific intelligence.

The question I was asking in the OP was is it right to fail to prosecute war criminals of the Eichmann level in order to preserve intelligence techniques. Mr Rimmer obviously thinks it is.
You should always protect the source of the information if it's needed. But there's nothing wrong with using intelligence information to direct the course of an interrogation to persuade a subject to reveal the intelligence information and provide an alternative source for that information. It does take skilled interrogation though.
__________________
"Sometimes its better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness" T Pratchett
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 19 Dec 17, 18:29
MarkV's Avatar
MarkV MarkV is offline
General of the Forums
UK
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Tenbury Wells
Posts: 13,389
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Just heard on the BBC - the last of the German speakers who did the listening has died.
One interesting snippet was that because the prisoners were in shared rooms one of the useful times was just after interrogation when the prisoner who had been interrogated would tell his room/cell mate everything that he hadn't told the interrogator.

But my OP question remains largely unanswered - is it moral to allow a major war criminal to go unprosecuted to conceal a technique for possible future use? At least one man admitted to being involved in 45,000 deaths.
__________________
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 26 Dec 17, 14:20
jf42's Avatar
jf42 jf42 is offline
Second Lieutenant
UK
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: London
Posts: 450
jf42 is on the path to success [1-99] jf42 is on the path to success [1-99] jf42 is on the path to success [1-99] jf42 is on the path to success [1-99]
In terms of realpolitik, we might agree that natural justice would not be served if those implicated in such crimes should escape trial and punishment. However, if the crimes of those individuals were not published, then we could argue that justice would not be compromised, and public morality not offended.

If we then consider the question 'Is it moral?' from the utilitarian principle of 'The greatest good for the greatest number of people,'- if national security was indeed protected as a result of the decision not to compromise interrogation procedures, the protection of an unquantified number of living citizens might arguably outweigh justice for the 45,000 dead of other nations who were beyond help.

Would natural justice be served by letting those implicated by overwhelming evidence go free, for reasons of state, and then letting them be 'terminated' subsequently by, say, undercover operatives of another state, leaving the world scratching their heads- though probably not for long (Let us call it 'The Mediterranean Option'). That would of course not be moral, but it might be just.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #11  
Old 28 Dec 17, 10:26
Nichols's Avatar
Nichols Nichols is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Paul Nichols
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Stafford Virginia
Posts: 12,252
Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800]
Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800] Nichols gives and gets respect [800]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
But my OP question remains largely unanswered - is it moral to allow a major war criminal to go unprosecuted to conceal a technique for possible future use? At least one man admitted to being involved in 45,000 deaths.
How do you feel about it?

"We may think of moralizing as an intellectual exercise, but more frequently it's an attempt to make sense of our gut instincts."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/basi...s-and-morality

My thoughts are that today, no it wouldn't be moral. At the beginning of the Cold War it was morally acceptable.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:28.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.