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  #31  
Old 09 Jan 18, 06:33
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Because it is still tied to the Left, who are anything but Liberal in this day and age.
They abused their own label, and I make a point of not calling them that word anymore. Power corrupts, as they say... or, as they used to say.

I would add not knowing when to say 'no' to themselves in pushing social boundaries and breaking down borders. A victim of their own success in that sense but now comes the price.
Point take, though it irks me still. This is not the death of which Dangerfield wrote.
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  #32  
Old 09 Jan 18, 09:26
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Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
and yet they still elected a hardcore Liberal.
Macron a "hardcore Liberal"?? Well this is indeed news to France. His proposals for labor reforms by way of sticking it to the Union syndicates and advocating more fiscal reforms by streamlining financial and public institutions have all the earmarks of Macron NOT being a "hardcore Liberal".

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Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
Their Liberal is still doing things your gov can't do...Support their military that isn't becoming a laughing stock. WHY, they even have aircraft to fly off of carriers. You would be better off to sit back and be quite.


Our carrier doesn't spring leaks either.
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  #33  
Old 09 Jan 18, 09:49
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Our carrier doesn't spring leaks either.
It had significant construction issues induing breaking one if its own propellers, chronic vibrations that left it semi-unusable and had to be fitted with old screws from retired French vessels. It has had other ongoing technical issues during refits as well.

And you have only one of them, so for months at a time there is no French Navy CV. Don't feel quite so pleased with yourself...
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  #34  
Old 09 Jan 18, 11:19
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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
Eh? The Italian (deep) State was responsible for some/much/a bit of the terrorism and turmoil that gripped Italy in those years. The strategia della tensione.
The government didn't 'overreact' to the kidnapping of Aldo Moro because several of them were quite pleased with it!
That sounds a little tin-foil hattish, like as not manufactured by the KGB's "active measures" unit, like that "Supplement B" to the U.S. Army’s Field Manual 30-31. What's next, that HIV/AIDS was invented at Fort Detrick?

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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
Worth noting that none of the political parties that were around then exist today in the same form.
I wish to God that that was the case here in the US. Democrat or Republican, the same old hands are recycled: Bush's administration was littered with the detritus of Nixon's from thirty years earlier, just as Obama's was a rehash of Clinton's. Isn't that what your Labour and Tories are: nothing more than fresh faces fronting for the same old tired hacks who've been party insiders for decades?

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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
It was the collapse of Communism and the end of the Soviet Union that finally ended the Brigate Rosse and their ilk as a force.
Though they carried on like zombies, Red Brigade lost their popular support six or seven years before the Berlin Wall came down. Something changed in Italy to remake the political landscape, and it wasn't just done with guns. Before the terrorists engaged in their last act, they lost their funding, their safe houses, their on-the-street intelligence, and their ability to recruit. Before they lost the battle of lead, they lost the battle of ideas.
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  #35  
Old 09 Jan 18, 12:07
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
That sounds a little tin-foil hattish, like as not manufactured by the KGB's "active measures" unit, like that "Supplement B" to the U.S. Army’s Field Manual 30-31. What's next, that HIV/AIDS was invented at Fort Detrick?
Err actually it was the CIA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

Check out P2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due

As for Aldo Moro, the government refused to negotiate with the Brigate Rosse, during his kidnapping - to Moro's regret.

Quote:
Though they carried on like zombies, Red Brigade lost their popular support six or seven years before the Berlin Wall came down. Something changed in Italy to remake the political landscape, and it wasn't just done with guns. Before the terrorists engaged in their last act, they lost their funding, their safe houses, their on-the-street intelligence, and their ability to recruit. Before they lost the battle of lead, they lost the battle of ideas.
Yes, that is generally true. Mind you the right-wing extremists also lost.
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  #36  
Old 09 Jan 18, 12:28
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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
You should read your own link.

Quote:
Swiss historian Daniele Ganser in his 2005 book, NATO's Secret Armies: Operation Gladio and Terrorism in Western Europe[32], accused Gladio of trying to influence policies through the means of "false flag" operations and a "strategy of tension". Ganser alleges that on various occasions, stay-behind movements became linked to right-wing terrorism, crime and attempted coups d'état.[8] In NATO's Secret Armies Ganser states that Gladio units closely cooperated with NATO and the CIA and that Gladio in Italy was responsible for terrorist attacks against its own civilian population.[61]

Peer Henrik Hansen, a scholar at Roskilde University, wrote two scathing criticisms of the book for the International Journal of Intelligence and Counterintelligence and the Journal of Intelligence History, describing Ganser's work as "a journalistic book with a big spoonful of conspiracy theories" that "fails to present proof of and an in-depth explanation of the claimed conspiracy between USA, CIA, NATO and the European countries." Hansen also criticized Ganser for basing his "claim of the big conspiracy" off US Army Field Manual 30-31B, a Cold War era forged document.[62][63] Hayden Peake's book review Intelligence in Recent Public Literature maintains that, "Ganser fails to document his thesis that the CIA, MI6, and NATO and its friends turned GLADIO into a terrorist organization."[64] Philip HJ Davies of the Brunel University Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies likewise concludes that the book is "marred by imagined conspiracies, exaggerated notions of the scale and impact of covert activities, misunderstandings of the management and coordination of operations within and between national governments, and... an almost complete failure to place the actions and decisions in question in the appropriate historical context." According to Davies, "the underlying problem is that Ganser has not really undertaken the most basic necessary research to be able to discuss covert action and special operations effectively."[65] Olav Riste of the Norwegian Institute for Defence Studies, writing for the journal Intelligence and National Security, mentions several instances where his own research on the stay-behind network in Norway was twisted by Ganser and concludes that "a detailed refutation of the many unfounded allegations that Ganser accepts as historical findings would fill an entire book."[66] In a later joint article with Leopoldo Nuti of the University of Rome, the two concluded that the book's "ambitious conclusions do not seem to be entirely corroborated by a sound evaluation of the sources available."[67]

"Strategy of Tension" section of "Operation Glaudio" entry, Wikipedia
We know that "Supplement B' of US Army Field Manual 30-31 was a KGB forgery, so any work using that "document" as a source is automatically suspect.

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Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
As for Aldo Moro, the government refused to negotiate with the Brigate Rosse, during his kidnapping - to Moro's regret.
That might have been a result of Ciro Cirillo's kidnapping the year before, when the Italian government did negotiate, and ultimately paid a cash ransom. Rome learned the hard way that negotiating with terrorists never pays off: it only motivates them to bolder crimes, and to up their demands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner View Post
Yes, that is generally true. Mind you the right-wing extremists also lost.
With the demise of Red Brigade, they no longer had a raison d'être.
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  #37  
Old 09 Jan 18, 12:45
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
You should read your own link.



We know that "Supplement B' of US Army Field Manual 30-31 was a KGB forgery, so any work using that "document" as a source is automatically suspect.
"First publicly revealed in Italy

The Italian NATO stay-behind organization, dubbed "Gladio", was set up under Minister of Defense (from 1953 to 1958) Paolo Taviani's (DC) supervision.[14] Gladio's existence came to public knowledge when Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti revealed it to the Chamber of Deputies on October 24, 1990, although far-right terrorist Vincenzo Vinciguerra had already revealed its existence during his 1984 trial. According to media analyst Edward S. Herman, "both the President of Italy, Francesco Cossiga, and Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti, had been involved in the Gladio organization and coverup..."[15][verification needed]
Giulio Andreotti's revelations on 24 October 1990

Christian Democrat Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti publicly recognized the existence of Gladio on 24 October 1990. Andreotti spoke of a "structure of information, response and safeguard", with arms caches and reserve officers. He gave to the Commissione Stragi, the parliamentary commission led by senator Giovanni Pellegrino in charge of investigations on bombings committed during the Years Of Lead in Italy, a list of 622 civilians who according to him were part of Gladio. Andreotti also stated that 127 weapons caches had been dismantled, and said that Gladio had not been involved in any of the bombings committed from the 1960s to the 1980s.

Andreotti declared that the Italian military services (predecessors of the SISMI) had joined in 1964 the Allied Clandestine Committee created in 1957 by the US, France, Belgium and Greece, and which was in charge of directing Gladio's operations.[16] However, Gladio was actually set up under Minister of Defence (from 1953 to 1958) Paolo Taviani's supervision.[14] Beside, the list of Gladio members given by Andreotti was incomplete. It didn't include, for example, Antonio Arconte, who described an organization very different from the one brushed by Giulio Andreotti: an organization closely tied to the SID secret service and the Atlanticist strategy.[17][18] According to Andreotti, the stay-behind organisations set up in all of Europe did not come "under broad NATO supervision until 1959."


Quote:
That might have been a result of Ciro Cirillo's kidnapping the year before, when the Italian government did negotiate, and ultimately paid a cash ransom. Rome learned the hard way that negotiating with terrorists never pays off: it only motivates them to bolder crimes, and to up their demands.
Yes, sure it might have been. OTOH Aldo Moro's murder certainly benefitted those who wished to avoid the 'historic compromise' between the Christian Democrats and the Communists. And Giulio Andreotti.
The Italian government has paid ransoms to terrorists since.

Quote:
With the demise of Red Brigade, they no longer had a raison d'être.
The Right-wing extremists probably started the Years of Lead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Fontana_bombing
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  #38  
Old 11 Jan 18, 16:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asterix View Post
Macron a "hardcore Liberal"?? Well this is indeed news to France. His proposals for labor reforms by way of sticking it to the Union syndicates and advocating more fiscal reforms by streamlining financial and public institutions have all the earmarks of Macron NOT being a "hardcore Liberal".





Our carrier doesn't spring leaks either.
On the contrary, you have just described someone with all the hallmarks of being an economic liberal and a step the UK took long ago.

In the meantime, how are you finding his attempts to secure your borders and defuse the State of Emergency in real terms, rather than just changing the rules?
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  #39  
Old 12 Jan 18, 00:26
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OMG... it isn't just Germany now-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idNtUC-ABnY&t=73s




This is just... I don't have the words, but at least we have the basic run-down here.

I'm glad I posted that one on Germany first.
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  #40  
Old 12 Jan 18, 09:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
On the contrary, you have just described someone with all the hallmarks of being an economic liberal and a step the UK took long ago.
Rather, it would appear your perspective on what constitutes a "Hardcore liberal" is a bit confused. Still waiting what specific policy Macron has instituted that would warrant such a label.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Escape2Victory View Post
In the meantime, how are you finding his attempts to secure your borders and defuse the State of Emergency in real terms, rather than just changing the rules?
Macron has made more advances in one year compared to his predecessor's previous 5 years in several key affairs, primarily economic which were sorely needed...in other sectors, he seems to waivered or walk back on.

Despite my difference of opinion with Macron vis-a-vis his policy on border security and/or security, I do not feel the UK, in light of your own recent past regarding said issue, is in any position to either lecture or compare to others. Security measures come and go in regards to current terrorist threats...there is no changing of the goal post here, it's changing to meet the required threat at hand...even you should know this.
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  #41  
Old 12 Jan 18, 17:36
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Originally Posted by asterix View Post
Rather, it would appear your perspective on what constitutes a "Hardcore liberal" is a bit confused. Still waiting what specific policy Macron has instituted that would warrant such a label.



Macron has made more advances in one year compared to his predecessor's previous 5 years in several key affairs, primarily economic which were sorely needed...in other sectors, he seems to waivered or walk back on.

Despite my difference of opinion with Macron vis-a-vis his policy on border security and/or security, I do not feel the UK, in light of your own recent past regarding said issue, is in any position to either lecture or compare to others. Security measures come and go in regards to current terrorist threats...there is no changing of the goal post here, it's changing to meet the required threat at hand...even you should know this.
Immigration and the economy are usually the top two issues in the west. You have already quoted Macron's approach to liberal economics, which I don't criticise and in any case is none of my business. What I do criticise, since it impacts the UK, is France's support for lax border control and tolerance of illegal immigration - it is the classic liberal mentality of the moment, including a ferry service to ship Africa to Europe.

Now you may say the UK is just as bad and that is true. Macron would fit comfortably in the Tory party, or Blair's Labour Party, as any good liberal would. I lament the politics of the whole of western Europe outside the US.
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  #42  
Old 13 Jan 18, 07:44
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Apparently, this bloke speaks really good German, and he's not baiting but trying to warn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGmwWeSAqoI
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  #43  
Old 13 Jan 18, 10:01
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Originally Posted by eddie3rar View Post
Apparently, this bloke speaks really good German, and he's not baiting but trying to warn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGmwWeSAqoI
Well eddie, I also speak really good German and live here.

What he says has some truth but not the full truth.

In the case of the woman push down the steps of the U-Bahn. The perp has been tried and is sitting in jail.

http://fortune.com/2017/02/19/german...sylum-seekers/
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Old 13 Jan 18, 11:58
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Liberalism has turned Europe into a nation of wimps, and now they are being eaten by wolfs.

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Apparently, this bloke speaks really good German, and he's not baiting but trying to warn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGmwWeSAqoI
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  #45  
Old 14 Jan 18, 08:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 101combatvet View Post
Liberalism has turned Europe into a nation of wimps, and now they are being eaten by wolfs.
Yes, Europeans voted traitorous politicians into power so the voters are just as much to blame as their politicians.
Hopefully voters will one day learn how to shoot straight like the great American voters who put Don in power, and the great British voters who voted to get us out of the wretched EU..

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