German executed among with partisans

[Karri]

Originally Posted by ShAA

My argument is that those who knew of the atrocities, and especially participated in them, should have avoided taking part in these crimes, and defecting was one of the ways to do it. I can't blame teenagers manning flak guns and airfield guards. Besides, we spoke of the probability of getting killed in battle vs dying in a POW camp, therefore we have to take frontline units in consideration only.

But atrocities didn't happen in the frontline, they happened behind they front lines(for most part anyways), therefore you cannot just count frontline units as your argument encompasses the whole of the state. besides I though your argument was that these men should defect because of how horrible these atrocities were, and now you seem to be arguing that they should defect because then they would have a better chance of living.

Great answer

Great question.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by clackers

Then let's get to the numbers of Soviet leaders on trial at Nuremberg, Shaa. The Allies applied a Winner's Justice scheme.

The Allies applied a scheme according to which the losers couldnt' be trusted to put on trial their own war criminals.
After WWI, the Germans had put on trial their small-fry criminals, and let the leaders avoid prosecution. That was the basis of the Allied decision, and under that respect the Allies were right.
Then, look at how lukewarm the West Germans were to continue the prosecution on cases that were handed over to them on a silver platter in 1948. That confirms again, in hindsight, that the Allies were right.

The Allies also thought that on the contrary, the winners could and would try their own war criminals. Some of the Allies were right under that respect, and some were not.

Soviet war crimes are still war crimes.

I think nobody can disagree with that... did anybody?

[dmf01]

Originally Posted by nikolas93TS

Quite a lot of material. I will give my best.

Thanks, nikolas93TS! But it's really too much, you don't have to do such a lot of work. I'll try my best to translate/understand.

And, thank you, vathra, for the provided material!

[broderickwells]

Originally Posted by Michele

The Allies applied a scheme according to which the losers couldnt' be trusted to put on trial their own war criminals.
After WWI, the Germans had put on trial their small-fry criminals, and let the leaders avoid prosecution. That was the basis of the Allied decision, and under that respect the Allies were right.
Then, look at how lukewarm the West Germans were to continue the prosecution on cases that were handed over to them on a silver platter in 1948. That confirms again, in hindsight, that the Allies were right.

The Allies also thought that on the contrary, the winners could and would try their own war criminals. Some of the Allies were right under that respect, and some were not.



I think nobody can disagree with that... did anybody?

The politics of memory and the politics of the start of the Cold War also resulted in some war criminals receiving lighter sentences than they ought. Manstein and Kesselring are two good examples.

[clackers]

Originally Posted by Michele

I think nobody can disagree with that... did anybody?

I don't remember Shaa actually agreeing with the statement, Michele, he instead devoted his time to *German* war crimes.

[ShAA]

Originally Posted by clackers

I don't remember Shaa actually agreeing with the statement, Michele, he instead devoted his time to *German* war crimes.

Oh, really? Of course, a crime is a crime.

And context is context, as well as size is size and proportion is proportion, but you chose to ignore commenting on this.

[bierbaron]

Originally Posted by clackers

Shaa, Soviet atrocities may be understandable in light of revenge for German war crimes, but they are still war crimes.

Well even if we apply the Geneva Convention to the Eastern Front, the Soviet crimes weren't just revenge.

Originally Posted by ShAA

Then do you understand what contextualisation is? For example, if I see a documentary and it features this old Cold War trick of mentioning only those German POWs who died in Stalingrad an implicit indicator of overall death rate in Soviet captivity, it is clear this falsehood is only provided for the purpose of denigrating Russia/Soviet Union's role in the war and provoking sympathy for the "poor Germans". If a researcher is honest, fair and unbiased, he would provide corresponding figures for the deaths of Soviet POWs, which would inevitably dwarf anything which happened to the Germans in Stalingrad in terms of both numbers and the inflicted horrors. However, this is done extremely rarely, if at all. Maybe it's never done because with proper contextualisation and honest historical approach they won't be able to spin a good story about the plight of "simple German lads" who fought to the end in a faraway land (without properly explaining the goal for which they were fighting) at the hands of "inhuman Russians".

Yeah and the ususal, good bolsheviks bad rest of the world story. Thank god the mods apply the innocent until caught rule.

[ShAA]

Originally Posted by bierbaron

Well even if we apply the Geneva Convention to the Eastern Front, the Soviet crimes weren't just revenge.

Of course, they weren't "just" revenge. Had they been revenge in its traditional understanding, more than 16 million German civilians would've been exterminated and a couple of dozen million would've been driven to near complete starvation leading severe complications to their future health. This is beside burning down every house left standing after the battles, driving away the livestock, burning crops and driving all able-bodied civilian population behind them, as the Germans did on their retreat.

This is what would have been a tit-for-tat revenge. What it was in reality, was an incredible and uncharacteristic display of restraint and magnanimity on part of Stalin and the Red Army.

Yeah and the ususal, good bolsheviks bad rest of the world story.

68 years since the suicide of Goebbels have passed, but the tune is still the same

[clackers]

Originally Posted by ShAA

Of course, a crime is a crime.

Thank you, that's all I wanted to hear, Shaa.

I'm not interested in Axis fanboi-style moral equivalence, just an acknowledgment that Allied war crimes happened.

[KICK]

Originally Posted by Johnny_BoomBoom

Whilst not everyone was this good, it shows you the rifle was:-


Taken from the Wiki page one the Lee Enfield Rifle - in 1914 I'm guessing it refers to the SMLE! What impresses me about this is the amount of times he must have had to reload as well - even if he swapped out the magazine for pre-loaded ones!

think Stripper clips..

[vathra]

Originally Posted by vathra

But there is one even more interesting case from
Person in center of this photo is German soldier August Heller. He was born in Austria, allegedly a communist. After arrival in Serbia, he contacted communists, and he gave them some info. By the end of July, he deserted army and joined partisan unit.
During partisan attack on Kraljevo on October 14. 1941, he was captured with four other partisan during attack on bunkers, and they were later shot to death.

Here is his name on partisan monument (in cyrillic, second from top):


Text in Serbian:
http://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Heler

It recently became known because some revisionist "historian" used this photo as a "proof" of cooperation between germans and communists.

---

For further reading, there seems to be more cases of german soldiers deflecting to partisans in 1941. Wikipedia lists book by Heintz Kühnrich and Frantz-Karl Hitze, "Deutsche bei Titos Partisanen 1941-1945."

Regarding this case, what does german records say about August Heller?
He was killed in Serbia in 1941, but is there more info on it from German side?

[Johnny_BoomBoom]

Originally Posted by KICK

think Stripper clips..

Yeah, two stripper clips per mag potentially, alternatively he could've started with 10 loaded and just topped 5 up per time....which would be 6 reloaded strippers min on top of a loaded mag to cover the 38 rounds he fired....

On a good day, with the next stripper to hand, I can probably get one stripper loaded into my K98 and get back on target in 3-4 seconds.....