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  #4771  
Old 17 Feb 10, 22:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kenneally View Post
"Who made you the "decider" for the picture I posted."
It isn't WHO made me the decider, it's WHAT makes me the decider. And that is my knowledge of the subject matter. However, before you start accusing me of arrogance in this matter, please remember what I said, when I allowed for the possibility of a rebuild (that is, a tank that was originally produced as an Ausf. D and later had the Ausf. A turret substituted when it was rebuilt). However, this would need to be PROVEN. In the absence of proof that it's a rebuild, Ausf. A is the only reasonable conclusion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Kenneally View Post
"If you want a chasis number, I suggest you go get into your "Way-back" time machine and find out. Until then, I will go with what I received from my fried in Warsaw Poland."
I don't want a chassis number. However, if the provider of this picture wants to tell us it's a rebuilt Ausf. D then the onus is on that person to provide the proof. Otherwise, it's pure speculation and the odds are against Ausf. D being correct.

I have identified the tank as an early Panther Ausf. A. This would be the correct identification, based on all of the visible characteristics of the machine in the photo. It has all the necessary features consistent with that model of Panther, and NO visible features that would make anyone who really knows their stuff suspect it's not an Ausf. A.

To come to the alternate conclusion that your Polish friend (or whoever supplied the info to him) has come to; that it was originally manufactured as an Ausf. D and later had the Ausf. A turret fitted in a re-build, one would need proof and the only way I know how to prove it would be from the chassis number. Now, I ask you, did your friend in Poland supply this proof? Or did he have said proof supplied to him? If not, then the only reasonable conclusion is that the tank in the photo is an Ausf A and that your Polish friend (or whoever supplied his info) either doesn't know his arse from his elbow when IDing Panthers, or is merely speculating that it could be a re-build, which is highly unlikely if based only on said speculation.


End of story.
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Last edited by panther3485; 17 Feb 10 at 22:28..
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  #4772  
Old 17 Feb 10, 22:33
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Looks like.... Fred to me. Yup; definitely Fred. Not the manly way it carries its weight. Not a Frederica by any imagination.
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  #4773  
Old 17 Feb 10, 23:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardS View Post

Looks like.... Fred to me. Yup; definitely Fred. Not the manly way it carries its weight. Not a Frederica by any imagination.
If it is German wouldn't it be a Franz? or is that too Austrian? (Fritz would be too easy)
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  #4774  
Old 17 Feb 10, 23:27
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Originally Posted by popuptarget View Post
If it is German wouldn't it be a Franz? or is that too Austrian? (Fritz would be too easy)
Fred is short for Frederick a good German name.
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  #4775  
Old 18 Feb 10, 00:24
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Friedrich if you want to get technical.
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  #4776  
Old 18 Feb 10, 04:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frisco17 View Post
Friedrich if you want to get technical.
I would suggest Anton.
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  #4777  
Old 18 Feb 10, 05:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
In the absence of proof of a rebuild, the only reasonable conclusion is that the Panther in the photo is an early production Ausf. A because it has all the externally visible characteristics of that model. That said, you are still most welcome to the points. I can afford it.



Agreed!!! I am happy to concede to logic!


Ah, sir, yer a gentleman and a scholar!!!


I have a question though, aren't pictures of this early Ausf A quite rare??


From Achtung Panzer it seems to suggest that 20 Pre Production A series the 'Nulle-Serie' were produced.....would this picture reflect one of those tanks? Or were more of them made than I can discover? (this is a serious question as I'm somewhat intrigued!)
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  #4778  
Old 18 Feb 10, 08:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_BoomBoom View Post
"I have a question though, aren't pictures of this early Ausf A quite rare??

From Achtung Panzer it seems to suggest that 20 Pre Production A series the 'Nulle-Serie' were produced.....would this picture reflect one of those tanks? Or were more of them made than I can discover? (this is a serious question as I'm somewhat intrigued!)"
There would have been hundreds of Ausf. A made in this precise configuration (but without the added weights, of course. )
The production total for Ausf. A was 2,200, from late August 1943 to early July 1944. The ball mount for the hull MG was not introduced into production until late November/early December 1943. (The precise date of its introduction varied slightly between the four manufacturers producing the Panther during this period; MAN, Daimler Benz, MNH and Demag.)

What this means is that we can count the following combined 1943 production quotas of Ausf. A as having been built without the MG ball mount:

August - 3
September - 149
October - 257
November - 170*
(*conservative estimate, representing about 75 percent of total for that month)

So, we can reckon on an approximate minimum of at least 570 Ausf. A having been built with the flap instead of the ball mount for the hull MG. (Of all the features that distinguish an early production Ausf. A from a mid-to-late production vehicle, I have chosen that one because it is a common cause of confusion between Ausf. A and Ausf. D.)

Hope that helps.

Data from pages 60-64, 'Germany's Panther Tank - The Quest for Combat Supremacy', Thomas Jentz & Hilary Doyle, Schiffer Military History, 1995
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Last edited by panther3485; 18 Feb 10 at 08:58..
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  #4779  
Old 18 Feb 10, 09:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
There would have been hundreds of Ausf. A made in this precise configuration (but without the added weights, of course. )
The production total for Ausf. A was 2,200, from late August 1943 to early July 1944. The ball mount for the hull MG was not introduced into production until late November/early December 1943. (The precise date of its introduction varied slightly between the four manufacturers producing the Panther during this period; MAN, Daimler Benz, MNH and Demag.)

What this means is that we can count the following combined 1943 production quotas of Ausf. A as having been built without the MG ball mount:

August - 3
September - 149
October - 257
November - 170*
(*conservative estimate, representing about 75 percent of total for that month)

So, we can reckon on an approximate minimum of at least 570 Ausf. A having been built with the flap instead of the ball mount for the hull MG. (Of all the features that distinguish an early production Ausf. A from a mid-to-late production vehicle, I have chosen that one because it is a common cause of confusion between Ausf. A and Ausf. D.)

Hope that helps.

Data from pages 60-64, 'Germany's Panther Tank - The Quest for Combat Supremacy', Thomas Jentz & Hilary Doyle, Schiffer Military History, 1995


Wow!!! Way more than I thought!!

Thanks
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  #4780  
Old 19 Feb 10, 11:18
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Dammit - 4,779 replies and almost a quarter of a million views - please tell me I'm not the Thread Killer!!!!!

If it's a tank you want......hmmmm ,not sure I guess the last one necessarily right.....so I'd happily bequeath my go - if I'd earned it - back to Kevin Kenneally who posted the intriguing Panther pic!!!
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  #4781  
Old 19 Feb 10, 11:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_BoomBoom View Post
Dammit - 4,779 replies and almost a quarter of a million views - please tell me I'm not the Thread Killer!!!!!

If it's a tank you want......hmmmm ,not sure I guess the last one necessarily right.....so I'd happily bequeath my go - if I'd earned it - back to Kevin Kenneally who posted the intriguing Panther pic!!!
This thread does sometimes go quiet for a while. I very much doubt if it's anything to do with you.

And whether or not you were correct with a guess makes no difference as far as I know. You can still post a pic for others to guess, any time you want.
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  #4782  
Old 19 Feb 10, 11:56
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Originally Posted by Johnny_BoomBoom View Post
Dammit - 4,779 replies and almost a quarter of a million views - please tell me I'm not the Thread Killer!!!!!
Yer not a thread killer, boom boom....

and here's a new one...

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  #4783  
Old 19 Feb 10, 14:21
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Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
Yer not a thread killer, boom boom....

and here's a new one...

And an easy one. its a Landsverk II Anti Air.
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  #4784  
Old 19 Feb 10, 14:33
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Originally Posted by Listy View Post
And an easy one. its a Landsverk II Anti Air.
Sorry, Listy...not a Landsverk II.
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  #4785  
Old 19 Feb 10, 14:47
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Originally Posted by skoblin View Post
Sorry, Listy...not a Landsverk II.
The Landsverk AA II is the same vehicle as a Nimrod AA Vehicle. Just depends who you talk too.
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