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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus

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Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus Post-Soviet Russia and some neglected smaller neighbors.

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  #46  
Old 22 May 16, 11:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
Meanwhile Swedish commentators say that Russian agents might be involved in the fall of a 300-meter TV mast in the South Sweden on 15 May. Russian embassy officially protests against accusations:
http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2756009
Is the Russian embassy protesting to the newspaper then?
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  #47  
Old 23 May 16, 02:45
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Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
Leaders of a Polish opposition party are arrested as suspected Russian spies:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...skorski-spying

So,who disagree with establishment is KGB spy.
Seems legit.

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  #48  
Old 15 Jun 16, 05:28
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Do not say you weren't expecting it:
Russian Football Louts in Marseilles Part of Putin’s ‘Hybrid War’ Against the West
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  #49  
Old 15 Jun 16, 14:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShAA View Post
Frankly, it's a load of tripe you can find in any standard "Russia bad" article in any Western media. You can start from the fact that the opinions of virulent, over-the-top brazen critics of Russia and its current regime are exclusively taken into account, like Pomerantsev and Shevtsova. Anyone who writes anything positive about Russia - or at the very least doesn't bark at it with froth at the mouth is branded an "influencer", just another slightly subtler "commie under your bed" label. Then finally it plunges into high sophistry, where it speaks about Saakashvili starting a war and excusing him by basically saying "Russia bad, because when it defends its financial interests, it means wringing hands". I suppose, when the US or EU handles its negotiations, it hands out freebies like there's no tomorrow and goes to extreme lengths not to cause any inconvenience to its trade partners anywhere in the world. In short, another massively biased and one-sided propaganda article.
Okay, I will give you something positive. I have met a number of Russians over the years and I have always found the Russians that I met during the course of my travels to be friendly, open and articulate. Russian women are some of the most beautiful I have ever seen and I have seen my fair share, and Russian warships are absolute eye candy for this old CPO. By the by, I agree that the American point of view can be remarkably self centered and parochial. How is that?
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  #50  
Old 19 Jun 16, 04:14
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A new level of paranoia:

UK government: we suspect many of those who attacked England supporters are in Russia’s uniformed services, fighting Putin’s ‘hybrid warfare’

What kind of "hybrid warfare" was fought by British hooligans arrested and sentenced by French authorities UK government failed to clarify.
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  #51  
Old 19 Jun 16, 04:29
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Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
What kind of "hybrid warfare" was fought by British hooligans arrested and sentenced by French authorities UK government failed to clarify.
Can you find any references of British government approving those hooligans? Or in fact anything which would be in correlation with the reasons why the Russian hooliganism was said to have possibly been part of "Putin's 'hybrid warfare'"?

Because if you can't then you are just comparing apples with oranges.
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  #52  
Old 19 Jun 16, 06:10
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Can you find any references of British government approving those hooligans?
Well, I don't know of any references of Russian government approving hooligans. Actually there are references to the Russian government condemning them, so you miss the target.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
Or in fact anything which would be in correlation with the reasons why the Russian hooliganism was said to have possibly been part of "Putin's 'hybrid warfare'"?
The principal reason why it was said is idiocy and paranoia.
I guess, one can easily compare Russian and British football hooligans, they are the same kind of morons. In this connection it's pretty funny to watch the efforts of the British press to gloss over behavior of their own rogues. Below is pretty much the picture you can get from their media:

Beneath the surface is apparently the deeply wounded national pride: someone managed to outhooligan the British fans after all. It's like outdrinking the Irish.
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  #53  
Old 19 Jun 16, 06:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
Well, I don't know of any references of Russian government approving hooligans. Actually there are references to the Russian government condemning them, so you miss the target.
So the Russian parlamentarian who tweeted encouragement for the Russian hooligans (“Well done lads, keep it up!”) is just a figment of every one's imagination?
Quote:
"The lads defended the honour of their country," Russian media quoted MP Igor Lebedev, who is also on the executive committee of the Football Union.
The spokesman for Russia's powerful Investigative Committee went even further.
"A normal man, as he should be, surprises them," tweeted Vladimir Markin, referring to European outrage at Russian hooligans. "They're used to seeing 'men' at gay parades," he concluded.
So despite of the halfhearted condemnation from certain Russian officials others have been busy encouraging and supporting them.
Quote:
I guess, one can easily compare Russian and British football hooligans, they are the same kind of morons.
No, they aren't. British hooligans are these days mainly just stone drunk men. They aren't prepared for a fight nor are they in any way armed. Which makes that a marked contrast to the Russian hooligans. As per what has been reported.
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Beneath the surface is apparently the deeply wounded national pride: someone managed to outhooligan the British fans after all. It's like outdrinking the Irish.
No. Britain and other countries sans Russia have been rather clear in their condemnation of their own hooligans - even Croatia pretty much branded their hooligans as criminals and even 'football terrorists'. Only thing which so far can be seen as having 'wounded national pride' is that some British men who took part to the hooliganism were there in the first place. Perhaps it would be good for Russia to grow out of the 70s - hooligans are these days equated to dimwitted morons, not to anything else, and that is also how they end up representing their countries. Which is why other countries are practically ashamed that the fans of their teams even take part to such.
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  #54  
Old 19 Jun 16, 08:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeltaja View Post
So the Russian parlamentarian who tweeted encouragement for the Russian hooligans (“Well done lads, keep it up!”) is just a figment of every one's imagination?
A Russian parlamentarian has nothing to do with the government (I used bold on a purpose). There are some guys in the Russian parliament that used to make even more extreme statements on a regular basis:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Zhirinovsky
Then the tweet was taken out of context and was a response to an initial reports of Brits attacking Russian fans.
Quote:
"A normal man, as he should be, surprises them," tweeted Vladimir Markin, referring to European outrage at Russian hooligans. "They're used to seeing 'men' at gay parades," he concluded.
Again out of context. That was a response to an observation about good physical shape of Russian fans. A rather stupid one but not an encouragement of hooliganism.
Worth to remind that the Russian government and Mr. Putin personally unequivocally condemned hooligans. Although not without mocking British "patriotic seizures".
Quote:
No, they aren't. British hooligans are these days mainly just stone drunk men. They aren't prepared for a fight nor are they in any way armed.
The issue is not typical football lovers but hardcore hooligans. And sure as hell England has some:
https://www.theguardian.com/football...rawl-euro-2016
Quote:
Britain and other countries sans Russia have been rather clear in their condemnation of their own hooligans
Nope, the mainstream position of the British media was "our peace-loving vegetarian innocent fans were brutally attacked by Putin's thugs while they were on a way to a local library to read Marcel Proust in French". Our simply speaking an outright denial of any acts of violence from the British side. The expression "patriotic seizures" to describe them wasn't invented by me.
I remind again that the Russian government had unequivocally condemned hooliganism.
And then, of course, people who seriously talk about "Russian hybrid war" in relation to football fan clashes are paranoid idiots. If you wanna be on a side of idiots, that's your choice. But leave me a freedom to make fun of you.
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  #55  
Old 19 Jun 16, 09:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
AThe expression "patriotic seizures" to describe them wasn't invented by me.
the source itself:

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  #56  
Old 19 Jun 16, 09:13
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Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
A Russian parlamentarian has nothing to do with the government (I used bold on a purpose).
You seemed to miss the point. Given how many Russian figures with authority have come out with messages of condoning or even supporting the violence the Kremlin message is not really believable.
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The issue is not typical football lovers but hardcore hooligans. And sure as hell England has some
Sure, but UK is not in any way supporting or encouraging them and in fact reportedly retained around 3 000 passports to prevent worst offenders from even reaching France.
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Nope, the mainstream position of the British media was "our peace-loving vegetarian innocent fans were brutally attacked by Putin's thugs while they were on a way to a local library to read Marcel Proust in French".
You only need to watch the scenes from the game to see that the argument the British put forward was not exactly that badly off either. Russian hooligans attacking British fans who included women and children kinda leaves rather bad taste, at least to those who saw it.
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The expression "patriotic seizures" to describe them wasn't invented by me.
Patriotic, by whom? Certainly not the British since they condemned their hooligans. So what exactly are the Russian after by trying to draw in nationalism and/or patriotism into hooliganism?
Quote:
And then, of course, people who seriously talk about "Russian hybrid war" in relation to football fan clashes are paranoid idiots. If you wanna be on a side of idiots, that's your choice.
Did i at any point state that i would agree with that description?
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  #57  
Old 19 Jun 16, 09:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
the source itself:

That some one is sick enough to make such a post is horrible (just in case it wasn't clear, i do not refer to your post but to the one you linked to)
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  #58  
Old 19 Jun 16, 16:53
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The numbers are actual ones released by French authorities at the moment of creation.

Oh, man. You have no idea what has been going on in France. First of all, the English "fans", "Wives and children" were rampaging for two days and nights straight before any Russian hooligans made an appearance. Secondly, they were provoking the Russians online and in person, prior and during the Euro cup. Writing and singing insulting songs about Russians, Putin, Sharapova; calling them commies etc. Moreover, as several videos have attested, the English pacifists prefer throwing ashtrays, bottles, glasses, chairs and tables at the opposition. But when the ultras (Spartak, CSKA, Zenit) close the distance for a melee, they melt away extremely quickly. At least three cases of 10+x more English were caught on video, and once the distance closes or the ammo runs out, they start to flee, with predictably bad consequences for lone heroes that stay.

Funny enough, the French police got in a fight with them, as did the local French fans, before the Russian ultras did. I was also told that some English fans found it funny to go around Marseille and call the local Muslims ISIS, as well as throwing pork and bacon into a mosque. Watch me spill tears over Russian hooligans beating up drunk animals, which anyone who has ever witnessed the Insulars in large bands can attest to. They create trouble wherever they come in large numbers. The irony in case of Croatian coast is that locals are bigger, sober and tougher, so the scruffs end the same way they ended with Russians: police arrest them, ambulance gathers them and has to pick them up from the sea.

Make no mistake, there were pre-organised and arranged fights, as well. But the scenes kicked up the most dust were Russian ultras posing with "trophies" and that video where the "second wave" was beating up those that were already on the floor. If you watch closely, you can see that blackshirts (the uniform of Russian ultras - "Tour de France") leave people alone once they are down - the hooligan codex.

In my opinion, something is wrong with French organisation and police forces. Might be a case of unsatisfied police and a protest. Croat hooligans somehow smuggled pyrotechnics on the stadium, and quite a lot of it. The police response to fights and unrest in the streets was rather slow and sloppy. In addition, the worst hooligans (Russians included - FSB had an operation) stayed at home, while the French were warned about others.

Last edited by Epigon; 19 Jun 16 at 17:01..
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  #59  
Old 19 Jun 16, 18:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epigon View Post
The numbers are actual ones released by French authorities at the moment of creation.
Posting it in such a manner however is sick - i.e. as a battle with winners so on.
Quote:
Secondly, they were provoking the Russians online and in person, prior and during the Euro cup. Writing and singing insulting songs about Russians, Putin, Sharapova; calling them commies etc.
And? That is not and has never been a reason to assault some one. Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
Quote:
Watch me spill tears over Russian hooligans beating up drunk animals, which anyone who has ever witnessed the Insulars in large bands can attest to. They create trouble wherever they come in large numbers.
So in your opinion it was perfectly fine that they beat some one who were drunk? That for you people who were violently assaulted are 'animals' is not exactly making your case for you.
Quote:
If you watch closely, you can see that blackshirts (the uniform of Russian ultras - "Tour de France") leave people alone once they are down - the hooligan codex.
That criminals claim to have a code doesn't make them any less criminals.
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In my opinion, something is wrong with French organisation and police forces.
Or that they actually had bigger issues than dealing with self-entitled morons who idolize violence - like the current terrorist threats, French labor disputes etc.
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  #60  
Old 20 Jun 16, 03:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epigon View Post
In my opinion, something is wrong with French organisation and police forces. Might be a case of unsatisfied police and a protest.
It's more like this — France is currently in a state of emergency, has been for months now. Prio 1 tends to be vigilance and protection against potential terrorist attacks. On top of that, France is experiencing massive and ongoing labour market unrest, strikes and demonstrators fighting the police. (If some of the trade unions got their way, the entire football championship would be called off entirely.)

Football hooligans kind of was a low priority — compared to terrorists not hitting them in attacks, and the need to police the streets of major French cities. Somehow the extent to which observers of the football championship seemingly have been able to be oblivious to that other stuff going on sort of might attest to the French police managing to do a half-decent job still? What's reported is that officers might start to feel a bit ragged by now though.
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