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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus

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Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus Post-Soviet Russia and some neglected smaller neighbors.

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  #61  
Old 22 Sep 11, 03:49
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Originally Posted by UVB76 View Post
That serfs were flogged to death sounds like Soviet propaganda. But Mironov is writing in precisely that sort of context. I won't argue the factual basis behind this. It's not the point. The point is that kids were being taught this in school and your average citizen would not think twice to use it as a tool in an argument. It should not be taken at face value.
A very good point.
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  #62  
Old 22 Sep 11, 04:14
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Originally Posted by stalin View Post
no, those weren't the executions done by the State but were demanded by the tzar personally as a emergency measures for attempted regicide and terrorism.
Fair enough.
However, regarding flogging to death of serfs in the 19th Century, this did happen, even thought it was - as you mentioned - illegal. However, illegality did not necessarily mean that justice occurred. I will cite a passage from Aleksandr Herzen (can't provide you a link as I have this book in my library).

Quote:
Rummaging about in the files, I found the correspondence of the provincial government of Pskov concerning a certain Madame Yaryzhkin, a landed lady. She had flogged two of her maids to death, was tried on account of a third, and was almost completely acquitted by the Criminal Court, who based their verdict among other things on the fact that the third maid did not die. This woman invented the most amazing punishments, hitting with a flat iron, with gnarled sticks or with a beetle.
I do not know what the girl in question had done, but her mistress surpassed herself. She made the girl kneel in filth, or on boards into which nails had been driven; in this position she beat her about the back and head with a beetle and, when she had exhausted herself, called the coachman to take her place; luckily, he was not in the servant's quarters, and she went out to find him, while the girl, half frantic with pain and covered with blood, rushed out into the street with nothing on but her smock and ran to the police station. The police-inspector took her evidence and the case went its regular course. The police busied themselves and the Criminal Court busied itself for over a year; at last the court, obviously bribed, very sagaciously decided to summon the lady's husband and suggest to him that he should restrain his wife from such punishments, and they obliged her to sign a document not to inflict such punishments in the future - while leaving her under suspicion of having brought about the death of two servants. On this understanding the unfortunate girl, who had been kept somewhere else while the case was going on, was handed over to her mistress again.
Thus, despite it being illegal to flog serfs to death, it did happen and was not necessarily punished either. Another one of those places where "the sword of the laws" did not necessarily go....
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  #63  
Old 22 Sep 11, 04:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UVB76 View Post
I'm simply a translator. But I can't help but start to think about why he might say one thing or another
because he wanted his book to be sold in the West, maybe that's why he plays up to its stereotypes?

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Originally Posted by UVB76 View Post
That serfs were flogged to death sounds like Soviet propaganda. But Mironov is writing in precisely that sort of context.
this context had been long gone and Soviet propoganda was no more trusted by the time he wrote the book.
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  #64  
Old 22 Sep 11, 04:32
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Aleksandr Herzen
well he was certainly not a person to trust on this matter... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Herzen
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  #65  
Old 22 Sep 11, 04:36
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Originally Posted by stalin View Post
because he wanted his book to be sold in the West, maybe that's why he plays up to its stereotypes?
That would be putting effect before the cause.

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this context had been long gone and Soviet propoganda was no more trusted by the time he wrote the book.
Again, you seem very sure of yourself that you speak for all of Russia.
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  #66  
Old 22 Sep 11, 04:48
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Originally Posted by UVB76 View Post
That would be putting effect before the cause
and it's exactly what he did (or had in mind to do) when began writing this book.

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you seem very sure of yourself that you speak for all of Russia.
let's say i speak for all of Russians (can't speak for Jews and dissidents, though).
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  #67  
Old 22 Sep 11, 05:00
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and it's exactly what he did (or had in mind to do) when began writing this book.


let's say i speak for all of Russians (can't speak for Jews and dissidents, though).
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  #68  
Old 03 Oct 11, 04:48
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Are you feeling a bit ill, reader? Unfortunately I’m not showing off, simply describing what really happened. I’m not a “tough guy”, not insane, it’s simply that if one wants to return home in one piece, they have no choice but to become an animal in the worst sense of that word. In part, you reader are guilty also, unwilling to prevent the beginning of this war. For you it’s happening somewhere far away. Far away, on another planet somewhere. I don’t know how, upon my return home, will I be able to suppress these instincts. The brain is not an appendix. It can pull out such a trick on you at any point that you’ll be left wondering, how you were capable of doing such a thing. And so, reader, do not be surprised to read how a victim’s intestines were wound up on somebody’s fist in the chronicles of by-gone days. You are partially complicit in it. You as well as your wife, your child or simply people you know or that are close to you could have ended up being that victim. People whom you love, respect and who are dear to you. And all of it because you were frightened or feigned indifference, did not join in on the feeble quire of voices that tried to stop the madness. Madness begets madness. The monster of war will continue to beget monsters in the minds of those who participated in this slaughter and these monsters will spill out into the street and take that which they think belongs only to them. That which belongs to them according to the laws of war.
Finally read it all, powerfull stuff - thanks again for doing this - grtz.
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  #69  
Old 03 Oct 11, 20:36
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Cheers, glad you're enjoying it.
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  #70  
Old 04 Oct 11, 06:17
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Hello, interesting discussion. Does Vyacheslav know about that? Would recommend him to visit this page also. Woud you recommend other themas concerning Russia on Armchair General and HistoryNet?
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  #71  
Old 04 Oct 11, 06:30
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He certainly knows of it - as he gave permission for the translation to be posted, don't know if he follows though, might be a language problem.

Grtz.
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  #72  
Old 04 Oct 11, 06:49
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He certainly knows of it - as he gave permission for the translation to be posted, don't know if he follows though, might be a language problem.

Grtz.
OK, no problem, I've just looked through the discussion. Should now leave, welcome to see my work also - would appreciate the comments about corrections also.
Best wishes!
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Old 04 Oct 11, 07:56
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Mironov is aware of this thread, but I don't believe he follows. By his own admission, english is not his forte.
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Old 05 Oct 11, 07:54
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Kein Problem, my aim here is not to discuss permissions, would like to communicate about other points. Will look now other themas here also, amy be there is something interesting on this forum yet?
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Old 05 Oct 11, 10:29
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Kein Problem, my aim here is not to discuss permissions, would like to communicate about other points. Will look now other themas here also, amy be there is something interesting on this forum yet?
What are you interested in? For GPW there is the RKKA section, there is some interesting threads here if you look back a while, otherwise you are more then welcome to start a thread on basically anything that interests you as far as it isn´t prohibited by the forums rules
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