HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Alternate Timelines

Notices and Announcements

Alternate Timelines The plausible "what if's" of military history.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 24 Jun 17, 19:12
Kurt Knispel's Avatar
Kurt Knispel Kurt Knispel is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: NY by way of Ireland
Posts: 1,234
Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Defeat of Germany in World War II Was Possible Without U.S. Help, Russians Say

This is what the majority of Russian's think today according to a recent poll taken there. Here is the article on yahoo.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/defeat-ge...160422988.html

The key word is "possible" here but could it have really been done without their Western Allies?..Without our help they already had the Germans reeling by July 1943 after Kursk and from then on until the end of the war the Germans were basically retreating on the eastern front with counter attacks by the Germans mixed in.

The question here,I think, was would the Russians have been in that position of superiority over the Germans without Lend-Lease from the UK and the USA. Troop transport trucks, food, tanks, medical supplies, ect. I know many will argue the case then Lend-Lease did not account for much but every contribution, no matter how small, is aid is it not?

Also, the invasion of Africa, Sicily, and Italy by the Western Allies had Hitler sending many divisions of the Wehrmacht to these fronts, which could have stayed on the Eastern front.

And what of the sacrifices of the bomber units by both the UK and USA on the Germans industrial centers and fuel/oil refineries?

Maybe Russia could have done it without our help but how much longer would the war have lasted and how many more million "Untermensch" during this extra year or even years, depending upon ones opinion, been killed?

A very "sticky" subject I would think.

By the way Putin sure knows how to look good in a suit while in public. Donald Trump could use some "fashion advice" especially in the hair-doo department from Putin.

Regards,Kurt
__________________
Our world at Khe Sanh was blood, death, and filth with deafening gunfire and blinding explosions as a constant soundtrack...Barry Fixler
http://sempercool.com/
Reply With Quote
Facebook Connect and Magazine Promotions

World War II Magazine
$26.95

Armchair General Magazine
$26.95
Military History Magazine
$26.95
  #2  
Old 24 Jun 17, 19:32
Pruitt's Avatar
Pruitt Pruitt is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
France
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Summer Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Real Name: Richard Pruitt
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sulphur, LA
Posts: 28,130
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Without having to defend Western Europe from French, British and Americans, the Germans could have held out much better. The Germans were already using the Balkans to fine tune reconstituted divisions before they went back to the Eastern Front. They would still have used France, Belgium and the Netherlands to rebuild shattered divisions. A more leisurely pace would have only been in Germany's favor.

The Red Army got a lot of food and other essentials like Telephone Wire from the US and Canada. The weapons were not always as good as Soviet weapons, but they were used anyway.

Would Stalin have negotiated a peace without Overlord? That is the important question.

Pruitt
__________________
Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 22 Aug 17, 11:07
ljadw's Avatar
ljadw ljadw is offline
General of the Forums
Belgium
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: zottegem
Posts: 15,477
ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800]
ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruitt View Post
Without having to defend Western Europe from French, British and Americans, the Germans could have held out much better. The Germans were already using the Balkans to fine tune reconstituted divisions before they went back to the Eastern Front. They would still have used France, Belgium and the Netherlands to rebuild shattered divisions. A more leisurely pace would have only been in Germany's favor.

The Red Army got a lot of food and other essentials like Telephone Wire from the US and Canada. The weapons were not always as good as Soviet weapons, but they were used anyway.

Would Stalin have negotiated a peace without Overlord? That is the important question.

Pruitt
This is not correct :every country the Germans defeated had to be occupied.If Britain was defeated,it had to be occupied,and the ressources needed for this,would not be available for Barbarossa . If there was no war with the West, considerable German forces would be tied to protect the German western border against a possible attack from Britain and France .

Napoleon had the same experience in 1812: the majority of his army was tied elsewhere and was not available for the attack on Russia . And even if there was no war with Britain in 1812,the situation would remain the same .
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 23 Aug 17, 11:19
Pruitt's Avatar
Pruitt Pruitt is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
France
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Summer Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Real Name: Richard Pruitt
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sulphur, LA
Posts: 28,130
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
This is not correct :every country the Germans defeated had to be occupied.If Britain was defeated,it had to be occupied,and the ressources needed for this,would not be available for Barbarossa . If there was no war with the West, considerable German forces would be tied to protect the German western border against a possible attack from Britain and France .

Napoleon had the same experience in 1812: the majority of his army was tied elsewhere and was not available for the attack on Russia . And even if there was no war with Britain in 1812,the situation would remain the same .
How many divisions used as occupation troops were trained and equipped well enough to participate on the Russian Front? One of the two divisions that occupied Denmark was called the "Butter and Egg" Division from its long duty there. Divisions in Western Europe were either low quality occupation formations or being rebuilt. There were many units composed of medically unfit and foreign troops in the West. A Regiment of sixty year old fortress machine gunners could function in the Seigfried Line and not so much in the Ukraine or Belarus.

Divisions in Western Europe were transferred to the Russian Front if they went out of their way to improve themselves. The garrison in Norway created a Panzer Division (25th Panzer) which was sent East. The inoperable Panzer III's left in depot later were used to create another Panzer Battalion.

The proposed invasion of Sweden only had one Mechanized Division and two good Infantry Divisions. The rest of the invasion units were low class occupation units. The Seigfreid Line was manned by older, less fit divisions in 1940. When France was conquered they were demobilized. I do think these guys were later recalled to service. Life can be unfair.

Pruitt
__________________
Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 24 Jun 17, 19:32
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,864
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt Knispel View Post
This is what the majority of Russian's think today according to a recent poll taken there. Here is the article on yahoo.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/defeat-ge...160422988.html

The key word is "possible" here but could it have really been done without their Western Allies?..Without our help they already had the Germans reeling by July 1943 after Kursk and from then on until the end of the war the Germans were basically retreating on the eastern front with counter attacks by the Germans mixed in.

The question here,I think, was would the Russians have been in that position of superiority over the Germans without Lend-Lease from the UK and the USA. Troop transport trucks, food, tanks, medical supplies, ect. I know many will argue the case then Lend-Lease did not account for much but every contribution, no matter how small, is aid is it not?

Also, the invasion of Africa, Sicily, and Italy by the Western Allies had Hitler sending many divisions of the Wehrmacht to these fronts, which could have stayed on the Eastern front.

And what of the sacrifices of the bomber units by both the UK and USA on the Germans industrial centers and fuel/oil refineries?

Maybe Russia could have done it without our help but how much longer would the war have lasted and how many more million "Untermensch" during this extra year or even years, depending upon ones opinion, been killed?

A very "sticky" subject I would think.

By the way Putin sure knows how to look good in a suit while in public. Donald Trump could use some "fashion advice" especially in the hair-doo department from Putin.

Regards,Kurt
If you study economics, Tooze proves that the Nazi's could not win, they would implode.

OTOH, as long as Britain did not cave, its economy would outlast Germany's.

WW2 did not need even the US or USSR to defeat the Nazi's. but hindsight is everything.
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 24 Jun 17, 20:11
Emtos's Avatar
Emtos Emtos is offline
General of the Forums
Belgium
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Anton
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Charleroi
Posts: 11,373
Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
If you study economics, Tooze proves that the Nazi's could not win, they would implode.

OTOH, as long as Britain did not cave, its economy would outlast Germany's.

WW2 did not need even the US or USSR to defeat the Nazi's. but hindsight is everything.
I don't think we can apply those economical principes to totalitarian states.
__________________
There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 25 Jun 17, 05:47
MarkV's Avatar
MarkV MarkV is online now
General of the Forums
UK
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Tenbury Wells
Posts: 13,382
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
I don't think we can apply those economical principes to totalitarian states.
What Kipling called "the gods of the copy book headings" apply equally to totalitarian regimes. Basic economic rules still apply. To suggest otherwise is economic illiteracy. It doesn't matter what the nature of your regime is if you haven't got access to oil you can't sustain a mechanised war, if you have to divert all your nitrate production to explosives food production plummets, the work force starves and industrial out put also crashes and so on
__________________
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 26 Jun 17, 06:44
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,864
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
I don't think we can apply those economical principes to totalitarian states.
Read Tooze. Read Edgerton.

It might not be 100% of the picture but Germany was going to lose almost regardless. Only by defeating the Soviets did they have a chance of not economically imploding, and Stalin was never going to surrender.
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 26 Jun 17, 08:35
Emtos's Avatar
Emtos Emtos is offline
General of the Forums
Belgium
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Anton
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Charleroi
Posts: 11,373
Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700] Emtos is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Read Tooze. Read Edgerton.

It might not be 100% of the picture but Germany was going to lose almost regardless. Only by defeating the Soviets did they have a chance of not economically imploding, and Stalin was never going to surrender.
In our timeline Germany was able to fight on multiple fronts for a number of years without imploding. I'm not sure that a state which can displace and kill people by millions, which has at his service a dozen of conquered countries and led by fanatics, can economically imploding.

Concerning Stalin, there are suggestions that he wanted to make a Brest-Litovsk styled peace.
__________________
There are no Nazis in Ukraine. © Idiots
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 26 Jun 17, 16:52
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,864
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
In our timeline Germany was able to fight on multiple fronts for a number of years without imploding. I'm not sure that a state which can displace and kill people by millions, which has at his service a dozen of conquered countries and led by fanatics, can economically imploding.

Concerning Stalin, there are suggestions that he wanted to make a Brest-Litovsk styled peace.
Obviously you have not read both Tooze and Edgerton. Iirc, Nazi Germany was going to implode 1947 or so. OTOH, as long as Britain doesn't give up, it would win, and without fighting. Even without military input from the USA or USSR. Hindsight is everything.
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #11  
Old 24 Jun 17, 22:30
dmf01's Avatar
dmf01 dmf01 is online now
Major General
Russia
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Perm
Posts: 2,549
dmf01 is a jewel in the rough [500]
dmf01 is a jewel in the rough [500] dmf01 is a jewel in the rough [500] dmf01 is a jewel in the rough [500] dmf01 is a jewel in the rough [500] dmf01 is a jewel in the rough [500] dmf01 is a jewel in the rough [500] dmf01 is a jewel in the rough [500] dmf01 is a jewel in the rough [500] dmf01 is a jewel in the rough [500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
If you study economics, Tooze proves that the Nazi's could not win, they would implode.

OTOH, as long as Britain did not cave, its economy would outlast Germany's.

WW2 did not need even the US or USSR to defeat the Nazi's. but hindsight is everything.
Agree with you, every one of the three major allies could had done it alone. Luckily they didn't have to.
__________________
"Keep Calm. Use Less X's"
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 25 Jun 17, 06:25
Kurt Knispel's Avatar
Kurt Knispel Kurt Knispel is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: NY by way of Ireland
Posts: 1,234
Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmf01 View Post
Agree with you, every one of the three major allies could had done it alone. Luckily they didn't have to.
Yes but your opinion still presents the same problem time and casualties.

Russia could have done it alone but, IMHO,added at least one year at minimum to the war costing Russia many more military and civilian casualties and also allowing the Nazi regime to keep sending innocents to the gas chambers.

UK by itself, maybe...IMO not possible and even if so would have added years to the conflict. Same goes for the U.S.A....Don't forget both of these countries were still dealing with the Japanese in the PTO. Together, IMHO, they would have eventually achieved victory but not standing alone like Russia. Either case would have added years (one could not know how many for a certainty) to the conflict, costing many lives of military and civilians.

Many overlook the cost of civilian lives and the damage associated with it that continues years after the conflict ends. As an example, the 3 month struggle to take Okinawa from the Japanese caused the deaths of approximately 150,000 innocent Okinawan people.

The Western Allies were very fortunate to have Stalin, although a ruthless totalitarian megalomaniac who slaughtered millions of his own people, and his Red Army on its side.

Regards,Kurt
__________________
Our world at Khe Sanh was blood, death, and filth with deafening gunfire and blinding explosions as a constant soundtrack...Barry Fixler
http://sempercool.com/
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 25 Jun 17, 05:39
Kurt Knispel's Avatar
Kurt Knispel Kurt Knispel is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
 
Real Name: Paul
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: NY by way of Ireland
Posts: 1,234
Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100] Kurt Knispel has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
If you study economics, Tooze proves that the Nazi's could not win, they would implode.

OTOH, as long as Britain did not cave, its economy would outlast Germany's.

WW2 did not need even the US or USSR to defeat the Nazi's. but hindsight is everything.
Toozes' The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy, based on Amazon reviews, is a very good book and reading over the reviews I think Tooze backs up his conclusions well. However WWII historian R. A Forczyk, the author of countless books on the subject, while giving it 4 stars he does point out the flaws in Toozes' work.

R.A. Forczyk:
Quote:
By now, nearly a decade after it first appeared, Adam Tooze’s The Wages of Destruction (2006), is considered a classic by many and one cannot address the subject of the Third Reich’s wartime economy without reference to his book. This book is an economist’s interpretation of why the Third Reich failed to achieve its objectives and offers many unique perspectives. Overall, The Wages of Destruction is a landmark work and a very good piece of historical work. However as a military historian, the book appears to only scratch the surface in places and lacks the detail to fully explain Germany’s wartime economy. Essentially, the book is more focused on economic indicators and input variables (e.g. labor, raw materials) than either R&D or output. Furthermore, I found the author to be unduly pessimistic; reading the book, I had the impression that Germany’s economy was extremely weak and near collapse even in the 1930s. Based upon the Third Reich’s wartime output, this seems counter-intuitive. The amount of blood, sweat and high explosive that the Allies had to expend to cripple German industry was prodigious, so I appreciate Prof. Tooze’s analysis, but the numbers seem to fall short of explaining the results. That being said, Prof. Tooze’s book does explain a great deal and should be regarded as the starting point for more in-depth research in how to cripple the economy of aggressive dictators (I think that may come in handy).

The Wages of Destruction is divided into 20 chapters and has 22 supporting tables and 22 additional figures. The first section covers the German economic recovery after Hitler came to power; Hitler wanted to spend 5—10 percent of Germany’s GDP on rearmament, but the economy was wobbly. Tooze makes interesting points in these opening chapters about how Hitler, Goring and friends coerced German businesses to adapt to their rearmament priorities, including forcing the coal industry to capitalize synthetic fuel production in 1934 and the nationalization of aviation companies like Junkers. Indeed, the ramp-up of aircraft production in Germany from 1934 to 1939 was phenomenal, but also expensive and wasteful. The author’s discussion of the Volkswagen program as a disastrous flop – but which was touted by Hitler as a great success – was also very illuminating about how the Third Reich ran industrial programs.

The book’s second part covers the period 1936-1940. Tooze focuses on three levers that inhibited German rearmament in the lead-up to war: the scarcity of foreign currency (which made it difficult to purchase raw materials overseas), the shortage of critical raw materials such as copper and rubber, and the persistent shortage of skilled labor. These are all good points, but Tooze does not always provide the supporting data to fully evaluate these issues. For example, he mentions copper several times as a key material, but fails to provide data on imports or sources. Thus, I could not figure out how badly Germany was short of copper or how this reduced armaments production. A number of the tables that are provided are not well explained and lack x- and y-labels, which makes it hard to understand a graph with ambiguous number values. Another interesting point that Tooze makes is the Nazi failure to invest in railroad development, which led to persistent transport issues during the war as demand greatly exceeded supply. However, Tooze also has a tendency to offer opinions as fact, such as his claim that, “the task [to dominate the British Isles] was simply beyond Germany’s industrial resources.” While the Luftwaffe clearly made operational and tactical mistakes in the Battle of Britain, the idea that Germany industry could not compete with Britain manno I manno is a bit absurd. Britain was on the winning team because it had the US and USSR as allies, not because of its innate industrial superiority over the Reich. Had Hitler delayed Barbarossa a year and focused on defeating England, the British would have been in real trouble in mid-1941. Another opinion is that Allied Lend Lease “did not begin to affect the balance on the Eastern Front until 1943,” which is highly contentious and offered without supporting evidence.

The third and final section covers 1941-1945. This section is the best in the book and has interesting details about how all the weaknesses in Germany’s economy undermined industrial performance. There is some discussion of specific programs, such as tanks and U-Boats, but the evidence presented is less than conclusive. For example, Tooze does not examine German assembly line practices, which were not very efficient, or the tendency to “over-design” weapons until they were too complex to mass produce. One chapter is focused on Albert Speer and the alleged “miracle” of production in 1943-44, which Tooze dismisses as mostly propaganda. Overall, Tooze’s thesis is that Germany’s economy was not ready to wage a global war and was badly mis-managed, which e does a fairly good job of supporting, even though specifics are sometimes insufficient. The fact that Germany was badly out-produced even by the Soviet Union appears ipso facto to support Tooze’s conclusions. However what Tooze fails to do is to show why – if the Third Reich’s economy was such a mess – that it took its enemies so long to defeat it. Somewhere in here, there is an economist’s over-estimation of the economic levers and an under-estimation of the human factors, which the Third Reich actually did an exceedingly good job of organizing.
I'll most certainly end up getting Toozes' book..Thanks Nick

Regards, Kurt
__________________
Our world at Khe Sanh was blood, death, and filth with deafening gunfire and blinding explosions as a constant soundtrack...Barry Fixler
http://sempercool.com/
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 25 Jun 17, 17:18
R.N. Armstrong's Avatar
R.N. Armstrong R.N. Armstrong is offline
ACG Author
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Plainview
Posts: 8,480
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
If you study economics, Tooze proves that the Nazi's could not win, they would implode.

OTOH, as long as Britain did not cave, its economy would outlast Germany's.

WW2 did not need even the US or USSR to defeat the Nazi's. but hindsight is everything.
Churchill did not seem to believe that at the time. The over-extension of Germany was in the USSR, not North Africa.
__________________
Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 26 Jun 17, 16:56
Desiree Clary's Avatar
Desiree Clary Desiree Clary is online now
Lieutenant General
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Real Name: Susan
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,185
Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600]
Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600] Desiree Clary is simply cracking [600]
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.N. Armstrong View Post
Churchill did not seem to believe that at the time. The over-extension of Germany was in the USSR, not North Africa.
If you believe Manchester and Reid (and I do) in The Last Lion: Winston Spencer Churchill: Defender of the Realm, 1940-1965 https://www.amazon.com/Last-Lion-Chu.../dp/B0076DEPUK

WSC said he didn't believe it, but that was wartime propaganda. Of course, WSC never doubted that Britain would win, anyway, AFAIK
__________________
Will no one tell me what she sings?--
Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
For old, unhappy, far-off things,
And battles long ago:
-William Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 14:20.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.