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  #16  
Old 31 Jan 11, 11:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by les Brains View Post
Your comment "Strategy, Tactics and game mechanics. For me, the game mechanics must reflect reality regardless of what level of warfare the game is simulating." is often the only reason I encounter rules lawyers though.

Take BBC BA for instance, a damn great little game, but because 7 squares is not a constant and consistent and uniform distance and that 8 is not just one more square equal to all the previous squares, some people simply can't enjoy the design.

Nope they are all about a square is a square is a square and all must be rigidly controlled.

Then there are the types, sorry the such and such tank had only this many millimeters of armour precisely here on this version as a result of them moving this hatch over here on this date in this theatre.
Mind numbing obsessions with anal levels of details is why some games suck big time for people just wanting to have fun playing a GAME.

I put it to you Tom, you ARE a rules lawyer
Me, a rules lawyer .

First off, what is BBC BA? Some games I've played are just that - games. I want a game (simulation) to reflect the period I'm interested in, to give the player a sense of linear combat if I'm playing, say, a tactical game in the 17th, 18th or 19th Century. For that reason, I prefer, the Clash Of Arms, Battles in the Age of Reason series over the GMT series of ARW games. There has to be meat on the bones of any game I play, otherwise you are just moving pieces around a mapboard without regard to tactical doctrine of the period you are playing. That, to me, is a meaningless exercise.

A game that is overly simplistic is therefore very generic. If I want generic, I'll play chess.

We must have differing opinions about rules lawyering because, to me, a rules lawyer is a guy who nitpicks the rules looking for the rules to provide them with an advantage, rather than good play on their own part. Whenever I play, if there is a minor difference between myself and a friend, we roll the dice and let the result determine how we play that facet of the rules the rest of day. Also, many of the games I play are with the (a) designer, so I know if I'm breaking a rule right away.
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  #17  
Old 31 Jan 11, 14:54
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BBC BA = BBC Battlefield Academy from Slitherine, a tactical WW2 design.

Your play mannerisms though seem less rules lawyering in style.
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  #18  
Old 31 Jan 11, 15:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Play moves along nicely.

Reality works.

The rules are such that they cannot be "lawyered."

When play is done you had fun....
I think I can agree with all that.

A mate of mine had a rule The end never justifies the means, except in wargaming .

We often designed our own rules for the campaign played, making them as simple as possible, but getting a right feel and result for any move or shot. It did mean that a set of rules for the desert would not work for NWE but that was okay in our opinion.
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  #19  
Old 31 Jan 11, 15:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by les Brains View Post
BBC BA = BBC Battlefield Academy from Slitherine, a tactical WW2 design.

Your play mannerisms though seem less rules lawyering in style.
It seems as though, originally, you were equating those of us who prefer more simulation than pure game with rules lawyers. To me, a rules lawyer is, was, and always will be 'one who seeks to gain advantage because of what the rules say (or don't say) regardless of history.' For instance, I once had an opponent (an acquaintance, not a friend) in a playtest of an 18th Century tactical miniatures system tell me that he should be able to prolongue a heavy gun forward down a steep hill. This same guy went on to explain that, in the Johnny Reb system he assaults formed infantry with skirmishers regularly because the rules allow him to. I tried to explain that no one but a sado-masochist in real life would have done such a thing. His attitude was that that was okay by him because the rules allow it. That is not the type of opponent I want on a regular basis. It is one thing to argue that a given rule may not seem kosher for a given era, but another to seek advantage because of a rules restriction or a rules omission. If I had a real quibble with a rule, I would do so after a game and argue the point in a friendly manner, post-game with my opponent (always a friend). Then we'd more than likely agree and address the issue on boardgamegeek or consimworld. In the meantime, if there was some los issue, or tactical issue, that could be solved by a dice roll, that is how we resolve the issue on an interim basis. That is the way reasonable, well-read, adults do it, imo.
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  #20  
Old 01 Feb 11, 12:31
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I think I see where you are going.

If I am correct, you are talking mainly table top miniatures, where as I might be talking more closely board game (which is played on a table, but not overly the same thing).

I have experienced board game designs more so though.

Most board games have rules that often sound very tedious simply because they often need to state 'no you can't do this' to a lot of things all so that people can't make asinine assertions all because 'the rules didn't say I couldn't'. My personal favourite is 'no you can't save movement points from last turn' as if it was spare change in a bloody coin jar.
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  #21  
Old 02 Feb 11, 10:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by les Brains View Post
I think I see where you are going.

If I am correct, you are talking mainly table top miniatures, where as I might be talking more closely board game (which is played on a table, but not overly the same thing).

I have experienced board game designs more so though.
I'm talking both genres.

Quote:
Originally Posted by les Brains View Post
Most board games have rules that often sound very tedious simply because they often need to state 'no you can't do this' to a lot of things all so that people can't make asinine assertions all because 'the rules didn't say I couldn't'. My personal favourite is 'no you can't save movement points from last turn' as if it was spare change in a bloody coin jar.
As you state above, if the rules writers didn't include that seemingly ridiculous statement, some lawyer would try to argue the case for movement point accrual.
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