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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Africa

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Africa Issues of modern Africa.

View Poll Results: Should abstinence be taught an alternative to condom use in Africa?
Yes, abstinence is the only 100% effective way of preventing the spread of Sexually Transmitted HIV. 15 57.69%
No, people have little or no self-restraint and can't be trusted to do what's in their own self-interest. 8 30.77%
I have no opinion and I don't care what is done to stop the spread of HIV in Africa. 3 11.54%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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  #31  
Old 01 Aug 08, 16:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPangracs View Post
That site's a joke....what is a "natural Christian"? There is no such thing at all in my book, as EVERY Christian MUST be "reborn". That's due to a little thing called "original sin". Also, look at the numbers of "professed" Christians. This number is misleading as well. That entire site is completely bogus, as "converts" equal only 430K. My kids weren't born Christians, they are allowed to make that choice on their own.

If all of these Africans who are getting and spreading HIV through unprotected, extra-marital sex Are any type of Christian, I would submit that they don't REALLY practice Christianity.

How many Christians in the US do YOU think use and support the use of condoms? Canadians? I know I do. I would submit that it is the Catholics who don't believe in the use of condoms for the most part, NOT Christians as a whole.

But all of this makes too much sense and is a practical application of religion, and it doesn't support your belief that all Christians believe abstinence is the ONLY way to stop the spread of Sexually Transmitted HIV.

While I believe it is the BEST way to do so because it is the ONLY way to 100% guarantee a person does NOT get HIV through sexual contact, I do believe that condoms are an important part of preventing aids between married couples in which one partner has acquired HIV through ANY means.

Next....
What PatBC is also missing is that in the case of genuine conversion there is a past BC life when those morals didn't exist. It is possible to start out bad and reform oneself but still be inflicted with the consequences. Also you have innocent people getting it from their parents through birth. There are genuine Christians with HIV in Africa. Some of them got it before turning their life around, some of them were born with it (MANY MANY babies are among the victims) and some of them aquired it through not being aware of the threat, ie spouse had it and wasn't tested.

This is why you need education programs. Abstinance, testing, awareness, the whole package. And medical services.
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  #32  
Old 01 Aug 08, 16:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pirateship1982 View Post
Seconded.

While it is true that you can't force people to be responsible why are so many people opposed to teaching responsibility? Condoms don't always work but if you keep your fly up it's a non-issue. Sure not everyone is going to buy the message but does that make the message wrong? Most people don't eat healthy, does that mean we scrap the food pyrsmid and teach our kids to pig out on twinkies?

Abstinance works. Logically you can't get a sexually transmitted disease if you aren't having sex. Find a partner with the same values and get married and you still have 0% risk. Yet people are opposed to teaching this. Did they fall asleep in biology?

There's nothing wrong with teaching responsibility people. Maybe not everyone will buy it but, hey, if it keeps 100,000 or 1,000 or only 100 from dying from the common cold was it a bad idea? Or do people find personal responsibility to be repugnant these days?
just bumping this post so it gets read
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  #33  
Old 01 Aug 08, 16:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pirateship1982 View Post
What PatBC is also missing is that in the case of genuine conversion there is a past BC life when those morals didn't exist. It is possible to start out bad and reform oneself but still be inflicted with the consequences. Also you have innocent people getting it from their parents through birth. There are genuine Christians with HIV in Africa. Some of them got it before turning their life around, some of them were born with it (MANY MANY babies are among the victims) and some of them aquired it through not being aware of the threat, ie spouse had it and wasn't tested.

This is why you need education programs. Abstinance, testing, awareness, the whole package. And medical services.
That is what the GAO stated in the report I posted in the other thread. The US congress imposed spending restrictions on abstinance eduction as faction of the overall spending is causing problems for the group actually delivering the program in 17 out of 20 countries that GAO examined.


Abstinance in of and itself will not stop the spread of HIV. Millions have been infected by other causes then sexual activities.

However despite what some believe Christians are the largest religious group in Africa.
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  #34  
Old 01 Aug 08, 17:04
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Originally Posted by PatBC View Post
I hate to tell you but
Does not happen in the Catholic or Orthodox Church, and I am pretty sure the Anglican Church and Lutheran.

I hate to tell you, but "There is no such thing at all in my book, as EVERY Christian MUST be "reborn".

That means it is MY OPINION.

I should be used to you taking things completely out of context or just plain fail to understand things as written. That's what I get for giving everyone the benefit of the doubt...only to get bitten in the arse by the one person who has comprehension problems.
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  #35  
Old 01 Aug 08, 17:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DingBat View Post
That's not what your question asked. Your question asked if abstinence should be taught as an alternative to condom use.

A no answer could certainly mean that the respondent believes that condoms are a sufficient counter and that teaching abstinence is not required. No could also mean that we should be dropping B-52 loads worth of free condoms on every village in Africa.

Your poll response implies people either must know abstinence or they are suicidal.
As an alternative, but not EXCLUSIVE of condom use, not by any means.

Sheesh, are you and Pat related?
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  #36  
Old 01 Aug 08, 17:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatBC View Post
That is what the GAO stated in the report I posted in the other thread. The US congress imposed spending restrictions on abstinance eduction as faction of the overall spending is causing problems for the group actually delivering the program in 17 out of 20 countries that GAO examined.


Abstinance in of and itself will not stop the spread of HIV. Millions have been infected by other causes then sexual activities.

However despite what some believe Christians are the largest religious group in Africa.
So, you once again take things away from the original topic - as I ONLY addressed the STD form of HIV transmission. Since you brought it up, are you now against addiction counseling for addicts to STOP using drugs, or merely giving clean needles? Along those same lines, do you actually expect an addict to make the right decisions when high? I'm talking about actually USING a clean needle and then actually using a condom!

Seriously, Pat, your entire worldview is predicated on enabling and WANTING people to continue high-risk behavior, and it's just one of the reasons we have an epidemic of HIV in the first place.
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  #37  
Old 01 Aug 08, 17:29
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PatBC...save your breath arguing with CPangras..he dosn't like us guys from North of the border..I think some one shoved snow down his shirt when he was a young guy ....

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  #38  
Old 01 Aug 08, 17:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatBC View Post
Maybe because they are following the Genesis 1:28
But disobeying Exodus 20:14
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  #39  
Old 01 Aug 08, 18:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bow View Post
PatBC...save your breath arguing with CPangras..he dosn't like us guys from North of the border..I think some one shoved snow down his shirt when he was a young guy ....

per ardua ad astra
That is absolutely untrue, and I resent your statement utterly. My family is from Esterhazy,AB Canada. Try a search for my last name - cousins galore in the Great White North.

I don't discriminate...stupidity obviously knows no borders.
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  #40  
Old 01 Aug 08, 18:12
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Would it be satisfactory to present an argument that supports and promotes marriage and abstinence otherwise for reasons other than ones religious faith?

Most people who are Christians also do so because of the obvious positive societal benefits of not murdering, stealing, having children which cannot be supported, and contracting deadly diseases due to ones behavior.

The fact of the matter is that even needle prick HIV has been spread due to contact at some point with someone who contracted it sexually.

Abstinence and faithfulness in marriage by both parties is 100% preventative for contacting HIVAIDS sexually. There is no scientific dispute about that fact.

Using intravenous drugs, not sterilizing needles, having sex with prostitutes and according to the Scientific American, the overwhelmingly primary vector, anal sex, are the primary behavioral patterns which spread the disease. Condom use reduces the instance of sexual transmission although that protection is not as great in the instance of non vaginal sexual relations for physical reasons.

If all parties are educated as to all of the alternatives, the only logical reason to opt for a condom is because the individual cannot or will not refrain from the dangerous activities, even if they understand the risks. Thus the wording of the poll is entirely correct.
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  #41  
Old 01 Aug 08, 20:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPangracs View Post
As an alternative, but not EXCLUSIVE of condom use, not by any means.

Sheesh, are you and Pat related?
Don't even start. If you don't want a serious discussion, just say so up front. I don't mind.

In my opinion, the wording of the options on your poll display a bias that would affect the results. If that doesn't matter to you, then hey, knock yourself out.
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  #42  
Old 01 Aug 08, 22:01
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going against human nature is bound to have problems
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  #43  
Old 01 Aug 08, 23:48
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I picked no, though i disagree with how you worded it.
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  #44  
Old 02 Aug 08, 00:25
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I picked no, though i disagree with how you worded it.
Please elaborate.
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  #45  
Old 02 Aug 08, 00:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DingBat View Post
Don't even start. If you don't want a serious discussion, just say so up front. I don't mind.

In my opinion, the wording of the options on your poll display a bias that would affect the results. If that doesn't matter to you, then hey, knock yourself out.
Start what?

What other way is there to guarantee, 100%, that a person does NOT get SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED HIV?

Why do YOU believe people, even after being formally educated on the use of condoms and/or the practice of abstinence STILL engage in the very behavior that exposes them to the HIV virus?

My poll was well-worded and to the point. Either you can answer the above questions, and therefore can answer the poll, or you can't.

It's not rocket science....for most.

Last edited by CPangracs; 02 Aug 08 at 00:30..
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