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Africa Issues of modern Africa.

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  #31  
Old 06 Jul 08, 14:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMan View Post
Actually, a lot of the uranium mined for the American A-bomb was mined right here in Colorado, USA. My wife has relatives who worked in the Cotter uranium mill, and a couple who died there, during that time. The Cotter mill is still present, and is likely to go back into operation, if McCain goes through with his promise to build 45 nuclear power plants.

While your explanation is interesting, it goes back to blaming the white colonials, a defense which is sadly lacking in depth or much of anything else as far as the native population is concerned. A lot of present day nations either began or were under colonial rule at one time or another, including the United States of America, and they aren't running around working off thousand year old tribal or ethnic hatreds as justification for mass atrocities and genocide.
Remember the first hundred years of US history
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  #32  
Old 06 Jul 08, 14:07
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Originally Posted by Fodder76 View Post
The key difference for me is that the colonists were not aboriginal. The State boundaries were drawn up by the people who lived in the colonies, as I understand it, and were not counter to existing ethnic boundaries. Well, they were but given what happened to the indigenous population it didn't really matter.

Take a modern European example, German expansion prior to WWII. Regardless of Hitler's motives there was popular approval in Germany and the German speaking areas of Austria and Czechoslovakia for moves to unify people of the same ethnicity who tranceded the national boundaries of the time.

Take Iraq, a modern nation whose boundaries were set by colonial powers with several ethnic and religious groups held together by an authoritarian government. Take away the government and you find the various groups desperate to fill the political vacumm with their people.

As long as ethnic ties mean more to a group than national identity then you're in for trouble and why would national identity mean anything to you if your nation is an alien construct imposed by a culture from another continent?

I hasten to point out that I don't believe there is any defense for the way Mugabe has run Zimbabwe, nor for the limp way that the AU has dealt with the situation, or not dealt with as the case may be.

I still say though that it has nothing to do with race, some kind of barbarism hard coded into the DNA of Africans, but something that all humans have displayed and will continue to do so despite Gene Roddenberrys utopian dream of planetary harmony.
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Old 07 Jul 08, 02:42
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Remember the first hundred years of US history
Don't you?
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  #34  
Old 07 Jul 08, 04:53
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The US fought a Civil War after it had been a country for almost 80 years. There was still ethnic violence in Us in the last century more then a hundred years after the US became a country. The US is not alone taking more then a century to become a single united country, many other western nations have taken much longer.

Not to mentions out my own country which has come close to disintegrating twice in the last few decades

But you expect African countries to have all there affairs in order in just a few decades after becoming an independent country?
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  #35  
Old 07 Jul 08, 10:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMan View Post
We tend to see Africans as balck people from Africa; they see themselves as distinct members of a particular grouping, physically, ethnically, socially, linguistically and politically different, distinctive and easily recognizable as such to one another. A Bantu is a Bantu, totally different from a Swahili, a Zulu or anyone else from another grouping - it's been that way for as long as they remember, but it is out of step with modern realities, and with African history itself.
This is the case with some groups and in some areas but cannot be applied as a general rule throughout the continent (or even the sub-Saharan part of it)


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Originally Posted by MountainMan View Post
The problem with African history and old ethnic and tribal boundaries as a reason for today's problems, conveniently blamed on white colonialism, is that those boundaries were established, altered, expanded and contracted by centuries of constant tribal warfare long before a single white man or colonialist ever set foot there.
Nature has established an absolute dictum for survival: adapt or perish. So what prevents Africans from adapting? Why is the West making the situation worse rather than better? And if European colonialism is the actual reason for unremitting hatred and violence in Africa, why should America be involved at all - at our own expense?
The chronology of the problem is as follows:
Tribal grouping destabilised for last 2000 years on east coast by Arab traders/ slavers and for 600 years on west cost by European traders/ slavers. – 17th to 19th century increase in slave trade and initial drive inland – late 19th century, land grab culmination in Berlin conference in 1884 which created most of the modern African states. – Independence between 1940’s and 1970’s – Cold war; wars fought by proxy all over Africa, leaders (both democratic and undemocratic) overthrown by USSR, USA and China. – End of Cold War (1990-1992) and most sub-Saharan African countries have a chance at true self-determination for the first time in 400 years but regional interference continues from former colonial powers and other African countries. At this stage the USA stands out as just about the only “honest broker” with anything approaching credibility and the power to back it up.

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The second you "grow up" and leave the nest, everything you do is your own responsibility. Africa either needs to accept their responsibility for their own actions and problems or finish growing up. Violence and killing do not solve personal, tribal, ethnic or national problems. Never have - never will.
The solutions to Africa’s problems lie in Africa. The old excuses are no longer valid but their year zero was 1990, not 1950.
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  #36  
Old 07 Jul 08, 17:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatBC View Post
The US fought a Civil War after it had been a country for almost 80 years. There was still ethnic violence in Us in the last century more then a hundred years after the US became a country. The US is not alone taking more then a century to become a single united country, many other western nations have taken much longer.
Hold on. I'm an American, and I am not aware of any historical fact where Italians were hacking Sicilians to death in New York City. Sorry, I don't really buy it.

Furthermore, the US was already a single united country before Civil War broke out. It was fought not on the basis of ethnic violence, but chattel slavery as a peculiar institution and political differences between the North and South. Ethnic violence is not same as chattel slavery. The war only lasted four years, and afterwards, the US became united again. There were no such thing as balkanization of the United States.

Quote:
Not to mentions out my own country which has come close to disintegrating twice in the last few decades.
It must be tough on you as the French tries to take over your country! I know how humiliating it can be!

Quote:
But you expect African countries to have all there affairs in order in just a few decades after becoming an independent country?
Maybe not. Nonetheless, Mugabe was hailed as revolutionary hero by the international community. He was educated at Harvard, he was supposed to have a good command of how economics functioned. He saw how Americans ran their own country efficiently and plentiful opportunities for everybody to cash in on success. He knew what democratic priniciples were all about, and how they can help move Zimbabwe along the path of success. In fact, at the beginning, Zimbabwe had a decent economy and lots of natural resources waiting to be exploited, if right investors could be found.

Mugabe had it all, and he choose to throw it away in exchange for more power and building up a cult of personality around him. He gave in to vanity, and not only that, he taught new generations that violence was the best answer possible to keep power at all costs instead of turning it over to somebody else peacefully. Interestingly, there was a report somewhere that Mugabe had originally intended to resign and allow the opposition party to take over the reins. But Chiwenga, Mugabe's top military general, refused to let that happen. He promised Mugabe that he would win it for him by running a military-type political campaign against the opposition party.

As it turned out, Chiwenga was right, he saved Mugabe's throne. That's what Mugabe is teaching new generations: the only way to throne is by using arms and violence against anybody daring to stand in its way.

Mugabe isn't the only story, far too many African dictators initially were supposed to be liberators and bringing in some type of democracy along with some socialist measures. But unfortunately, they tasted power and wanted more of it. I chalk it up not to white colonialism, but one simple word: greed. They were greedy for more power. That's it.

MountainMan is right: Africans are truly responsible for their own mess. Let them clean it up themselves without any sort of assistance from us. God knows they've had enough of our 'helping' hand.
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  #37  
Old 07 Jul 08, 18:19
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So the south did not see themselves as different for the northern states before the civil war? While not a southern victory would not of likely lead balkanization it would have lead to two separate countries. Remember also that during the war of 1812 there was serious talk of the New England States especially New Hampshire, Vermont and Massachusetts separating.


Not sure about Italians attacking Sicilians however have you heard of?

Black panthers
Aryan Militias
Kahanist
Death Angels
KKK
The Order

Just in the last half century.

If you think ethnic violence has not been part of the US history I think you might want to consider why Utah was settled.



The Separatist from Quebec want to leave Canada, not take it over they missed on the last referendum by 50.58% "No" to 49.42% "Yes".
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Old 07 Jul 08, 19:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatBC View Post
So the south did not see themselves as different for the northern states before the civil war? While not a southern victory would not of likely lead balkanization it would have lead to two separate countries. Remember also that during the war of 1812 there was serious talk of the New England States especially New Hampshire, Vermont and Massachusetts separating.
With all due respect, the differences between the South and North were cultural ties, sectionalism, political philosophies, and economics, rather than ethnic differences. In short, the biggest difference between them was what the political course America was destined to take.

Quote:
Not sure about Italians attacking Sicilians however have you heard of?

Black panthers
Aryan Militias
Kahanist
Death Angels
KKK
The Order

Just in the last half century.

If you think ethnic violence has not been part of the US history I think you might want to consider why Utah was settled.
Please. How could you possibly compare Black Panthers to what Mugabe is doing right now over there? Truthfully, such groups never seriously threatened to break down the United States' political system and functional governmental institutions. Ironically, even in their heydays, they were never widely accepted outside of restricted geographic or political areas. KKK was in fact cracked down by government shortly after Civil War ended. But when Reconstruction Era ended, KKK was back in power around 1920s.

I think while it's true that ethnic tensions did break out, but to call it ethnic violence is too much even for me.

As for the Utah, that was over religious differences, not ethnic ties!

Quote:
The Separatist from Quebec want to leave Canada, not take it over they missed on the last referendum by 50.58% "No" to 49.42% "Yes".
Oh, they were going to split from you, then requesting France to send over French troops to take over the rest of Canada!

Only kidding....

I did recall seeing that on TV, and to be honest with you, I didn't really care for Canada. Hehe. Especially if you were so obsessed with hockey instead of real man's sports -- Football!
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Old 07 Jul 08, 19:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatBC View Post
The US fought a Civil War after it had been a country for almost 80 years. There was still ethnic violence in Us in the last century more then a hundred years after the US became a country. The US is not alone taking more then a century to become a single united country, many other western nations have taken much longer.

Not to mentions out my own country which has come close to disintegrating twice in the last few decades

But you expect African countries to have all there affairs in order in just a few decades after becoming an independent country?
Considering that they have been murdering each other for over two thousand years...yeah...I think it's about time.

Or, to put it another way - if no other nations were to intervene in Africa, how long do you think the mindless killing would continue? My own guess would be: pretty much forever, until no one is left who can continue.
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Old 07 Jul 08, 22:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMan View Post
Considering that they have been murdering each other for over two thousand years...yeah...I think it's about time.

Or, to put it another way - if no other nations were to intervene in Africa, how long do you think the mindless killing would continue? My own guess would be: pretty much forever, until no one is left who can continue.
Can I point you back to the list of successful, democratic African nations I posted way back when.

Can I also point out that Europeans have been murdering each other for just as long, however given our history of democratic governance, something denied to most African nations until a couple of decades ago, we've thankfully pretty much gotten sick of it. Mind you its only been 50 or so years, too soon I reckon to start congratulating ourselves.
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Old 08 Jul 08, 10:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMan View Post
Considering that they have been murdering each other for over two thousand years...yeah...I think it's about time.

Or, to put it another way - if no other nations were to intervene in Africa, how long do you think the mindless killing would continue? My own guess would be: pretty much forever, until no one is left who can continue.
Europeans have been killing each other just as much over the last 2000 years. The EU has given us 50 years of peace in Western Europe but we’ve still killed each other with great effect in the East as nations re-emerged after 40 years of Soviet colonialism.

Modern Africa is a construct of the Europeans in 1884, not the natural evolution of tribes into nation states.
As for walking away now; I don't think that's a good idea. In my opinion President Bush’s greatest achievement is the support he has given to Africa.
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Old 08 Jul 08, 12:12
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Can I point you back to the list of successful, democratic African nations I posted way back when.

Can I also point out that Europeans have been murdering each other for just as long, however given our history of democratic governance, something denied to most African nations until a couple of decades ago, we've thankfully pretty much gotten sick of it. Mind you its only been 50 or so years, too soon I reckon to start congratulating ourselves.
I noted that the list is of nations that are also small and insignificant political non-entities, without much in the way of resources or anything that a neighboring nation would want - the African equivalent of Lichtenstein, Andora, Monaco, San Marino and so forth.

But since you brought it up, can you please explain why their success has not spread to the rest of the African nations?
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Old 08 Jul 08, 12:58
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I noted that the list is of nations that are also small and insignificant political non-entities, without much in the way of resources or anything that a neighboring nation would want - the African equivalent of Lichtenstein, Andora, Monaco, San Marino and so forth.

But since you brought it up, can you please explain why their success has not spread to the rest of the African nations?
Time

Nations do not develop overnight.
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Old 08 Jul 08, 16:52
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Originally Posted by MountainMan View Post
I noted that the list is of nations that are also small and insignificant political non-entities, without much in the way of resources or anything that a neighboring nation would want - the African equivalent of Lichtenstein, Andora, Monaco, San Marino and so forth.

But since you brought it up, can you please explain why their success has not spread to the rest of the African nations?
This is what happens to countries in Africa that have things that other nations want.
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Old 08 Jul 08, 17:17
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I noted that the list is of nations that are also small and insignificant political non-entities, without much in the way of resources or anything that a neighboring nation would want - the African equivalent of Lichtenstein, Andora, Monaco, San Marino and so forth.

But since you brought it up, can you please explain why their success has not spread to the rest of the African nations?
It not African who are supporting the trade in blood diamonds and other gems.
It not Africans that are buying for Ivory.
It is not Africans buy the oil in Nigeria
It is not Africans buying the gold
It was not Africans buying the slaves
It is not African buying animal parts to improve then sex lives.
It is not Africans buying the timber.
It is not Africans buy the minerals.

It is not Africans hiring mercenary to invade and destabilize African countries.
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