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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Africa

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Africa Issues of modern Africa.

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  #76  
Old 25 Nov 08, 16:25
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Originally Posted by Kaiser Franz View Post
There are many of us here that have had the very unpleasant duty associated with WAR -- you apparently have not.
So did you fight for Charles Martel or was he before your time? Charlemagne perhaps?

Main problem is that the only way to fix Somalia is to go in and take control of the place, Of course the warlords don't like that because they want to be in control and they're willing to shoot your people.

As somebody else put it: "You're trying to create a functioning state in a society where everybody is bitched off at everybody else, chewing khat and wielding an AK-47 that they don't mind spraying you with the minute that you try to establish a presence in the area. ... If you'd like to create a functioning Somalian state, you're going to have to kill or bribe anybody who would also like to be the head of that Somalian state, because they're not doing it for the good of Somalia; they're doing it to be the guy who gets all of the cheese generated by that state."

Of course randomly bombing villages doesn't work because probably 90% of the time you'd be hitting people who have nothing to do with the pirates, and because a video on the BBC of some disemboweled kid isn't very good for your public image.

Personally, I'd say we just let the Islamic Courts take over the place and start chopping peoples hands off or whatever the penalty is for piracy. And I'm sure the shipping companies can more than afford to hire some mercs to helicopter around and guard their ships.
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  #77  
Old 25 Nov 08, 16:53
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As Charlemagne was two generations younger than Karl Martel -- I'm going to have to lean more toward him -- 1,100 years ago was a long time though -- not even I am THAT old

I suppose you lean more toward Che Guevara ??

I really have no interest in creating a functional state in Somalia - I just want a big bunch of pay back for dragging our troops dead bodies through the streets -- and not only for the actual dragger's -- but also for everyone that thought it was funny -- and that's about everyone in the country.

As far as I'm concerned -- Clinton gave up and pulled out when we should have turned the place into plate glass instead -- but I'm an aggressive sort of guy that knows how to carry a grudge -- can't help it
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  #78  
Old 25 Nov 08, 17:12
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Arm the merchant ship. They are big enough and mostly rich enough that they shouldn't need outside help. Bank robbers don't rob banks when someone is standing behind a load mg. I would guess the same would apply for the pirates. These have been crimes of opportunity. Take it away.
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  #79  
Old 25 Nov 08, 17:58
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I suppose you lean more toward Che Guevara ??
I'd say I lean more towards the centrist parties, but you really should read Mao's Red Book. You might even agree with some of the things he says.
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  #80  
Old 25 Nov 08, 18:06
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Arm the merchant ship. They are big enough and mostly rich enough that they shouldn't need outside help. Bank robbers don't rob banks when someone is standing behind a load mg. I would guess the same would apply for the pirates. These have been crimes of opportunity. Take it away.
But -- you don't understand -- if the temptation is removed and they no longer try to commit Piracy -- our opportunity to exterminate them is lost as well
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  #81  
Old 25 Nov 08, 18:34
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But -- you don't understand -- if the temptation is removed and they no longer try to commit Piracy -- our opportunity to exterminate them is lost as well
Thus we must kill the darkies while we still have the chance!
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  #82  
Old 25 Nov 08, 18:47
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Thus we must kill the darkies while we still have the chance!
I don't much care for the term "darkies" -- I prefer to call them Pirates and their accomplices and supporters -- and YEP -- you bet -- take them all out -- to the last living soul -- maybe others will get the hint that Piracy doesn't pay in the long run
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  #83  
Old 25 Nov 08, 19:45
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As the resident pirate historian, permit me to point out that "millions for defense, not one cent for tribute" is a policy that has worked with African pirates before. These guys get a lot more passive when the long arm of the Navy shows up (and opens fire). They commit these acts because they know they can get away with it. If death is their only result they won't do it. (Or they'll all get killed, either way problem solved.)

Redstar I think you are making some errors:

You point out HRT operations I assume as proof that tactical takedowns don't work well. But you have only pointed out RUSSIAN rescue operations. Russia could screw up boiling water in it's current state. Last time these guys conducted a naval operation they just about burned one of their Akulas down. However America has preformed numerous successful hostage rescue operations as have the Europeans. In 1977 the Moluccans siezed an elementary school. Kids rescued, terrorists dead. In 1980 the Iranians took hostages at an embassy in London. The SAS went in, terrorists killed. Achille Lauro, Entebbe, I could go on for quite awhile. We are more than capable of taking down terrorists in percise fashion. Surely you cannot seriously compare the Indian Navy and the Russian Army to NATO? There is a difference in quality I assure you.

Really a couple of well placed SEAL teams will get the desired result with these standoffs. Arming the merchant vessels would definitely deter further problems. Most of these guys use small boats you wouldn't need a very powerful gun to blow their watercraft right out from under them. The only catch would be the cost of modifying the boats and training the crew in gunnery.
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  #84  
Old 26 Nov 08, 09:03
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But -- you don't understand -- if the temptation is removed and they no longer try to commit Piracy -- our opportunity to exterminate them is lost as well
When the choices come down to starvation or hijacking, I don't know that there is enough firepower in the world to eliminate this particular problem.

We are going to continue to have this sort of problem as long as failed states exist. To clean up all the failed states the UN is going to have to get used to the idea that an occasional invasion is not automatically a bad thing.

I also don't know who's turn it is to supply the warm bodies for this sort of nation building but I think we've done enough for one decade. Someone else can fill body bags in Somalia.
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