Confederacy ruled by big government

[semperpietas]

Originally Posted by Nickuru

From what I have read, the invasion of Kentucky was a great strategic mistake. As others have pointed out here, it was done to recruit soldiers. It boomeranged in the CSAs face. A case of tactics overruling strategy, which leads to disaster. Kentucky wanted no part of either side in the war. Braxton Braggs's invasions allowed the Union armies to move in to defend Kentucky. This led to the loss if Corinth, Vicksburg and the Mississippi river, dividing the CSA in two.

Not quite correct,

There are two separate and distinct invasions of Kentucky. The first is made by Polk in September of 1861. At the time, Polk commands the Confederate Western Department. Bragg commands troops along the Gulf Coast. Thus Bragg had nothing to do with it.

The Second invasion is somewhat of a credit to Bragg, as he maneuvered Buell away from Chattanooga and regained part of Middle Tennessee that Johnston lost. Corinth had already fallen with Beauregard commanded the Army of the Mississippi. At that point, Confederate forces in Mississippi are placed in a seperate department, first under Earl Van Dorn, and then under Pemberton in which Vicksburg fell. Bragg holds no direct responsibility for those either.

[grognard]

Originally Posted by B7B Southern

I think think they did pretty well when they
were out numbered anywhere 2-3 to 1 most
of the time.

Old Jube said it best. "The Confederates lost
because they were tired from whipping the yankees".

Aside from chickamauga, when did they whip the Yankees in Tennesssee or Kentucky?

[B7B Southern]

Originally Posted by grognard

Aside from chickamauga, when did they whip the Yankees in Tennesssee or Kentucky?

I just made a statement concerning them l'il old Southern
boys being out numbered. You disagree with that?
And then what Early said. You probably do disagree with that.
And I was thinking a little more about the eastern fields of battle.

[grognard]

Originally Posted by B7B Southern

I just made a statement concerning them l'il old Southern
boys being out numbered. You disagree with that?
And then what Early said. You probably do disagree with that.
And I was thinking a little more about the eastern fields of battle.

I have a probem with general statements that suddenly are revised to narrow things down to specifics. Even if they had won in Va, they were losing pretty much everywhere else.
BTW, the Rebs had more men at the beginning of the battle of Shiloh, and more at the beginning of Ft. Donaldson, and in the East Jackson usually had more men when he won in the valley.

[hellboy30]

Originally Posted by grognard

I have a probem with general statements that suddenly are revised to narrow things down to specifics. Even if they had won in Va, they were losing pretty much everywhere else.
BTW, the Rebs had more men at the beginning of the battle of Shiloh, and more at the beginning of Ft. Donaldson, and in the East Jackson usually had more men when he won in the valley.

Grog, we've posted tons of examples of battles where the Rebs were at par or even outnumbered their Yankee counterparts & still lost. These same generalizations keep creeping back in.

[grognard]

Originally Posted by hellboy30

Grog, we've posted tons of examples of battles where the Rebs were at par or even outnumbered their Yankee counterparts & still lost. These same generalizations keep creeping back in.

I know that, but some others don't appear to.

[B7B Southern]

Originally Posted by grognard

I know that, but some others don't appear to.

Well I ain't into the western theatre. So please excuse my short commings.
It was more of a tongue in cheek anyway.

[Nickuru]

Just from an outside point of view, what effect did the volunteer style army in the CSA have on operations? The west of the Mississipi was lost due bungling and personal hatreds among commanders Jefferson Davis and Joseph Johnston, Braxton Bragg and anyone he came in contact with? The campaign to take over New Mexico, was a disaster. Price and McCulloch were completely out of touch. No one was coordinating the military operations.

Benjamin McCulloch was an interesting personality, loved to engage in duels like the rest of his family.

[semperpietas]

Originally Posted by Nickuru

Just from an outside point of view, what effect did the volunteer style army in the CSA have on operations? The west of the Mississipi was lost due bungling and personal hatreds among commanders Jefferson Davis and Joseph Johnston, Braxton Bragg and anyone he came in contact with? The campaign to take over New Mexico, was a disaster. Price and McCulloch were completely out of touch. No one was coordinating the military operations.

Benjamin McCulloch was an interesting personality, loved to engage in duels like the rest of his family.

Well actually, from April 1862 onwards the Confederacy operated with largely a conscripted army. Part of the reason Braxton Bragg was so hated was because he enforced conscription laws to the letter, as well as having assumed chief of staff authority for the Army of the Mississippi during that period.

I don't see a volunteer army hampering Confederate efforts anymore than they did Union efforts, likewise with conscription and draftees.

However, since the subject has been broached, Bragg did not have a high opinion of volunteers or their officers. This drove him to introduce harsh disciplinary measures to his army, which further fueled his martinet and unpopular image.

As for coordination in the theater, you have to remember, from 1861-October 1862, most of the Confederate western armies reported to what was known as Department Number 2, encompassing Kentucky, Tennessee, Northern Alabama, and Arkansas. The first commander of this department was Polk, who focused his efforts on the Mississippi river. Then A.S. Johnston, who focused on the Kentucky and Bowling Green line.
During that period, Confederate Forces in Arkansas were headed first by Hardee (before his command was transferred to Kentucky), then by Benjamin McCulloch and his commands out of Texas. At this time, Missouri had not seceded. Pro-Seccession Missouri State Guard forces, however, were organizing and actively fighting. The Confederates had no authority over the MSG (headed by former MO Governor Sterling Price). However, when Lyon began active campaigning against the MSG, McCulloch did come to Price's aid at the Battle of Wilson's Creek, where Missouri State Guard, Arkansas State Troops, and Confederate Army troops defeated Lyon his army. After the battle, McCulloch and Price went to loggerheads. McCulloch was a frontier soldier, a drinker, and a fighter who hated wearing a uniform. Price was an ambitious politician who had charisma, but sometimes came off as a vain fop who lacked common sense. They disagreed over strategy, so McCulloch (who had no authority over Price because Price was not officially in the Confederate Army), returned to Arkansas with his command.

Samuel Curtis takes over Union forces in MO, and promptly kicks Price and his MSG out of the state. Price and his command go to Arkansas, where they are convinced to sign in to Confederate service. Price is commissioned as a major general, keeping the rank he had as commander of the Missouri State Guard. Because he and McCulloch do not get along, Davis decides to solve the problem by sending Earl Van Dorn to take command of the district. From this point on, I can recommend you read up on the Battle of Pea Ridge for that comedy of errors (from the Confederate perspective at least. Curtis performed brilliantly on his part).

After Pea Ridge, Van Dorn is ordered by Beauregard (acting on Johnston's authority) to go to Corinth in Mississippi. Van Dorn abandons Arkansas, but moves slowly, destroying military equipment and leaving the state barren and defenseless (something that his successor Hindman manages to deal with administrative brilliance). You have the battle of Shiloh, where Van Dorn's troops are sorely missed. Johnston is killed, and Beauregard assumes command of the Department at Corinth, with Bragg commanding his army (Army of the Mississippi) and Van Dorn's army (Army of the West/West Tennessee). Davis sacks Beauregard after Corinth, and Bragg takes command of Department No. 2. However, Davis' strips Bragg of much of his departmental authority. When this comes apart during the 1862 Heartland offensives that end at Perryville and 2nd Corinth, Davis appoints Joe Johnston to command what is now called the Confederate Western Department.

Johnston is supposed to coordinate military operations in his department, which is limited to Pemberton's Mississippi and East Louisiana Department and Bragg's Tennessee Army. Johnston argues that it would be better to group Trans-Mississippi forces under Holmes and Pemberton into one department, and to group Bragg's Army, Buckner's East Tennessee Department, and Lee's Army into a department under Lee, because of less geographic limitations in the transfer of troops. Johnston also argues that it would be better to either move Bragg's Army into Mississippi (because Rosecrans wasn't expected to move), or shift the bulk of Pemberton's troops to Bragg to attack Rosecrans. Davis refuses this proposals for political reasons (either having to abandon Tennessee or Mississippi, neither feasible political prospects). Of course in the end, Pemberton and his army will be captured along with Vicksburg, and Bragg's Army, weakened to reinforce Pemberton, will manuevered out of Middle Tennessee by Rosecrans.

[grognard]

Originally Posted by B7B Southern

Well I ain't into the western theatre. So please excuse my short commings.
It was more of a tongue in cheek anyway.

If it's tongue in cheek, please indicate it somehow.--Do we revisit all your posts and filter them all that way?

[B7B Southern]

Originally Posted by grognard

If it's tongue in cheek, please indicate it somehow.--Do we revisit all your posts and filter them all that way?

OK.