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Air Power A place to discuss the implements of War in the Air!

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  #31  
Old 19 Dec 17, 01:54
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Depending on the mission, drones are tremendously flexible, for example this one can go peek over the horizon and is therefore worth its weight in gold, no need to go to the bother of having to use a big manned chopper, and could also be flown off very small patrol craft-
Yes, but my point was that efforts to increase endurance / range and payload start to increase the size and hence the cost but do not mitigate the various disadvantageous of a remote vehicle and suddenly you are looking at a manned aircrfat in terms of size. Check the evolution of the USN MQ-8 series which has gone through small, dedicated unmanned designs to simply de-manning a 407.

As long as they are small and simply, it makes sense. As they get bigger and more capable, this tends to fade.
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  #32  
Old 20 Dec 17, 01:50
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Pending another thread ...
What is Boeing's secret plane? Firm teases mysterious design believed to be an electric 'hairdryer' craft it boasts will 'change future air power'

  • Maybe believe the craft is a radical electric 'vertical takeoff and landing' craft for the military that needs no runways
  • Some claim it could be a new spaceplane based on the mysterious X39B
  • Boeing will unveil their mystery aircraft on December 19th
By Mark Prigg For Dailymail.com
Published: 15:13 EST, 18 December 2017 | Updated: 02:35 EST, 19 December 2017
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Last edited by G David Bock; 20 Dec 17 at 01:59..
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  #33  
Old 20 Dec 17, 06:01
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It's their X-plane candidate.

A friendly piece of advice to non-UK posters, the Daily Mail is an infantile paper about as useful as chocolate tea-pot. Certainly it would not let facts get in the way of a good, hyperbolic story.
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  #34  
Old 20 Dec 17, 10:16
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Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
..A friendly piece of advice to non-UK posters, the Daily Mail is an infantile paper about as useful as chocolate tea-pot. Certainly it would not let facts get in the way of a good, hyperbolic story.
The Daily Mail is a right-wing paper so it's alright by me, however it's a bit too fond of featuring the occasional anti-British article by "Red Max" Hastings.
My favourite paper at the moment is the right wing Daily Express..
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  #35  
Old 20 Dec 17, 11:07
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Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
One of the circular issues with UAVs / RPS is that their attractiveness is low cost, but as they become more capable this disappears, while the development costs rise steeply. Suddenly it is not worth replacing your proven manned aircraft.
Yes, that's good insight - as of now.

But suppose that on the one hand the opposition develops more capable countermeasures against that manned aircraft, and on the other hand that the political cost of personnel casualties continues to go up.
An unmanned aircraft (or vehicle) that is as costly and as capable as a manned version might end up looking attractive, in the future, simply because in the worst case you'll only be losing hardware, not personnel.
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  #36  
Old 20 Dec 17, 15:58
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Excerpts and comments later, when less busy ...
Boeing - Defense Products and Services
http://www.boeing.com/defense/#/products-services
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  #37  
Old 20 Dec 17, 16:08
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Yes, that's good insight - as of now.
Thank you, I'm here all week. Try the veal.

Quote:
But suppose that on the one hand the opposition develops more capable countermeasures against that manned aircraft, and on the other hand that the political cost of personnel casualties continues to go up.
An unmanned aircraft (or vehicle) that is as costly and as capable as a manned version might end up looking attractive, in the future, simply because in the worst case you'll only be losing hardware, not personnel.
Very much so, but as with most complex and multi-facited debates, the calculations and opportunity costs are difficult to reconcile until one has arrived at a given point. How much is a pilot worth? How much capability drop do you accept from unmanned? What is the acceptable investment to replace the crew before the wider economics start to bite?

Tricky and there is no real answer.

Quote:
Excerpts and comments later, when less busy ...
If I were to whisper sotto voce, I would say: 'Notice the de-manning theme...
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  #38  
Old 20 Dec 17, 16:34
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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
Here are some shots of my quadcopter in action in Arma 3 using it just as real-life troops do
The Marines use those drones in VBS-3 (military version of Arma 3). They also use Phantom DJI drones to create 3D maps that they use in VBS-3.
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  #39  
Old 20 Dec 17, 16:45
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Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
Thank you, I'm here all week. Try the veal.



Very much so, but as with most complex and multi-facited debates, the calculations and opportunity costs are difficult to reconcile until one has arrived at a given point. How much is a pilot worth? How much capability drop do you accept from unmanned? What is the acceptable investment to replace the crew before the wider economics start to bite?

Tricky and there is no real answer.



If I were to whisper sotto voce, I would say: 'Notice the de-manning theme...
My response, "If I were to whisper sotto voce": Notice the UAV thread title and assorted topics on such at the linked page.
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  #40  
Old 20 Dec 17, 17:02
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Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
https://www.thecipherbrief.com/artic...ors-terrorists

The most opaque aspect (not explored in the article) is the role of AI. There is no practical or theoretical reason AI cannot be taught to navigate without GPS and execute missions without a command link. This will be the key factor in determining how powerful a drone swarm can actually become.
Good thread but it has not really explored swarming, the coordinated movement and fires of very large number of objects. I could see there comes a point, quite early on in scaling up to a swarm, where the human brain and teams of humans cannot manage this very well. I could see an early role for AI in this coordination of a swarm. More broadly, I have not seen much defence output on swarming tactics, swarming tech options or how swarming could be used to best effect. Given swarming may prove a popular choice for opponents overmatched in high end tech, defence against swarming probably also needs more research.
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  #41  
Old 20 Dec 17, 18:40
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But difficult to change satellite coverage in a few hours, so ability to deploy rapidly and ISTAR asset with a long horizon and low vulnerability has its uses. But they are costly.
But much easier to do than deploying the lengthy string of tankers necessary to sustain an SR71, starting with immediately after take-off in an atmosphere of greatly enhanced SAM capabilities.


Returning to topic, the problem with UAV's as a whole is the disassociation from the actual job of killing. It's hard to be surgical when the whole thing is reduced to a giant video game.
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  #42  
Old 20 Dec 17, 18:49
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My response, "If I were to whisper sotto voce": Notice the UAV thread title and assorted topics on such at the linked page.
I am nudging towards Boeing thinking, not the wider thread title and topic. Assess for yourself

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But much easier to do than deploying the lengthy string of tankers necessary to sustain an SR71, starting with immediately after take-off in an atmosphere of greatly enhanced SAM capabilities.
Not necessarily, no, and tankers do not get near SAM envelopes.
Quote:
Returning to topic, the problem with UAV's as a whole is the disassociation from the actual job of killing. It's hard to be surgical when the whole thing is reduced to a giant video game.
Actually, the counter-argument is that it is a lot easier for various reasons.
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Old 20 Dec 17, 18:55
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Just as a proponent of making war unsustainable I'd like a Predator with a laser guided .50 caliber machine gun. It'd make our enemies twitch...

https://www.military.com/defensetech...w-smart-bullet
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Old 20 Dec 17, 19:04
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Just as a proponent of making war unsustainable I'd like a Predator with a laser guided .50 caliber machine gun. It'd make our enemies twitch...
How about APKWS as a half-way house?
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Old 20 Dec 17, 19:33
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How about APKWS as a half-way house?
I'd rather do a less collateral damage system. Just saying...
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