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Air Power A place to discuss the implements of War in the Air!

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  #16  
Old 14 Dec 17, 00:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
What are you talking about? I was backing it up..
We live in the Drone Age so we're going to be seeing all sorts of military missions done by unmanned drones that previously were done by manned vehicles/choppers/planes at the risk to the crews..

This ought bring things more to scale.

I shopped this video about before, but seems it pertinent.

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  #17  
Old 14 Dec 17, 14:17
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Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
Read the text - you were talking about drones with GPS he was specifically talking about drones without GPS
So what? I've already said in other posts that some small drones could have a tiny programmable brain telling them to fly X miles north, then X miles south or wherever.
Alternatively some could have an onboard GPS receiver to navigate by GPS downlink.
In either case the enemy wouldn't even know it was there because they'd be flying too high to be eyeballed or heard, and too small to be easily picked up on radar.
And even if they are shot down, they're far more expendable than a human-crewed chopper or whatever..
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  #18  
Old 14 Dec 17, 14:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCoyote View Post
https://www.thecipherbrief.com/artic...ors-terrorists

The most opaque aspect (not explored in the article) is the role of AI. There is no practical or theoretical reason AI cannot be taught to navigate without GPS and execute missions without a command link. This will be the key factor in determining how powerful a drone swarm can actually become.
GPS is the vital key to getting it right, so that degree of autonomy is highly unlikely.
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  #19  
Old 14 Dec 17, 15:29
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SciFi has the answers. I loved how in one of William Gibson's novels, written back in the 80s, a seeker drone/bomb sniffed out its target using DNA.
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  #20  
Old 14 Dec 17, 19:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
So what? I've already said in other posts that some small drones could have a tiny programmable brain telling them to fly X miles north, then X miles south or wherever.
Alternatively some could have an onboard GPS receiver to navigate by GPS downlink.
In either case the enemy wouldn't even know it was there because they'd be flying too high to be eyeballed or heard, and too small to be easily picked up on radar.
And even if they are shot down, they're far more expendable than a human-crewed chopper or whatever..
How do they 'know' what is x miles north etc? A gyroscope would be too big and by its very physics impossible to miniaturise. . and a GPS downlink is the same as a command link.
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Old 15 Dec 17, 04:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
..a GPS downlink is the same as a command link.
Nah mate, GPS downlinks are one-way, they come down from a satellite to motorists, truckers, cruise missiles and drones and anybody else, so there's no way you'd be giving away your position simply by tuning into GPS.

WIKI- GPS does not require the user to transmit any data..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System


For example the Japanese fleet sailed across half the Pacific undetected to Pearl Harbor because they maintained radio silence all the way, navigating by the sun,stars and dead reckoning.
Remember, if you hit "transmit" you're in a world o' hurt..

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  #22  
Old 15 Dec 17, 05:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
So what? I've already said in other posts that some small drones could have a tiny programmable brain telling them to fly X miles north, then X miles south or wherever.
Alternatively some could have an onboard GPS receiver to navigate by GPS downlink.
In either case the enemy wouldn't even know it was there because they'd be flying too high to be eyeballed or heard, and too small to be easily picked up on radar.
And even if they are shot down, they're far more expendable than a human-crewed chopper or whatever..


It would need to be stealth because radar can pic up even the tiny quad copter. In fact the Radar on out frigates can track the 35mm shells to there targets. In fact during the 80s a SAAF drone was used in a op to try and capture or destroy a SA8 battery. The Sam fired a number of missliels at the drone.



So the drone will need to be stealth.




There is a method of navigation that involves a gyro compass and messuring air speed. South Africa automs under water drone uses it. So haveing a completely signal free flight is possible. Of course Tatical it of limited use. The drone Flys for let's say 2hours with a ultra quiet electric motor no signals and does photo recon. No the drone lands. All that data needs to be studied, the image is most like a wide view so it will take longer to get data from the drone than the 2hour flight.


Now a high speed ultra high unmanned sr71 replacement could work. With out the need of the pilot it could be made to fly higher and faster with a extreme stealth profile.




But in terms of Tatical drones I still see it being a command link style maybe a simple quad copter. In fact the drone used in Arma 3 is kind of what I thing will be used.
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  #23  
Old 15 Dec 17, 05:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
How do they 'know' what is x miles north etc? A gyroscope would be too big and by its very physics impossible to miniaturise. . and a GPS downlink is the same as a command link.


Not as big as you think.



Note this all so has 2 side scan sonars, GPS and command link along with the gyro system. It all do able to detect if the currents knocked it off course so it can surface require it postion on GPS and carry on with it's mission all with out any human input. Human input only comes in to play during recovery.
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  #24  
Old 15 Dec 17, 09:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
How do they 'know' what is x miles north etc? A gyroscope would be too big and by its very physics impossible to miniaturise. . and a GPS downlink is the same as a command link.
Actually ring laser gyros are very compact and used in many of today’s aircraft flight control systems. A navigation system using an inertial measurement unit with ring laser gyros or using utilizing the latest advancements in MEMS technology, current navigation systems use a wide assortment of inertial sensors including a 3-axis accelerometer, 3-axis gyroscope, 3-axis magnetometer, and a barometric pressure sensor. These systems are very compact and are now about the size of a typical integrated circuit.

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  #25  
Old 15 Dec 17, 17:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewza View Post
It would need to be stealth because radar can pic up even the tiny quad copter...
But in terms of Tatical drones I still see it being a command link style maybe a simple quad copter. In fact the drone used in Arma 3 is kind of what I thing will be used.
1-Radar would have a very hard time picking up a tiny quad copter, especially as warships and SAM batteries usually keep their radars OFF for most of the time in a shooting war (depending on the scenario) so's not to give away their position.
Anyway a quadcopter could fly low in sea/ground-skimming mode UNDER any radars that might be switched on, popping up higher later to peek around.
2- Ah, so you're an Arma 3 player, so am I, I've logged over 2000 hours on the King of the Hill servers against teams of human opponents and have reached elite level 116, I've got my sh*t wired tight, so say hello if we bump into each other and we can team up. (same goes for any other players reading this).
Here are some shots of my quadcopter in action in Arma 3 using it just as real-life troops do

No need to go into that industrial complex and risk getting shot, so I unpack the QC from my backpack to do my snooping for me-



The airborne QC (foreground) hovers and peeks at the circled area-



And zooms in. Hello boys! They wouldn't even know they were being spied on because the QC is too far away to be seen and heard.
I could now call in an artillery or airstrike etc on them!
And even if they did see it and shoot it down, it'd be no great loss because it'd have already sent its pics back to us..



At night, the QC switches to night vision mode-



Or infra red-


Poor Old Spike's 'Weapon Tests' thread at Arma 3 forum-
https://forums.bistudio.com/forums/t...-tests/?page=8

Last edited by Poor Old Spike; 15 Dec 17 at 18:15..
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  #26  
Old 15 Dec 17, 18:29
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i play more realsim and for me that drone is way to close i do my recon 1000m up and 3000m away from the target.
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Old 15 Dec 17, 18:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewza View Post
It would need to be stealth because radar can pic up even the tiny quad copter. In fact the Radar on out frigates can track the 35mm shells to there targets. In fact during the 80s a SAAF drone was used in a op to try and capture or destroy a SA8 battery. The Sam fired a number of missliels at the drone.



So the drone will need to be stealth.




There is a method of navigation that involves a gyro compass and messuring air speed. South Africa automs under water drone uses it. So haveing a completely signal free flight is possible. Of course Tatical it of limited use. The drone Flys for let's say 2hours with a ultra quiet electric motor no signals and does photo recon. No the drone lands. All that data needs to be studied, the image is most like a wide view so it will take longer to get data from the drone than the 2hour flight.


Now a high speed ultra high unmanned sr71 replacement could work. With out the need of the pilot it could be made to fly higher and faster with a extreme stealth profile.




But in terms of Tatical drones I still see it being a command link style maybe a simple quad copter. In fact the drone used in Arma 3 is kind of what I thing will be used.
The SR71 has largely been rendered obsolete, and is hugely expensive to operate for even a single mission. It's job was made obsolete by the plethora of satellites - over 4,000 - currently orbiting the Earth.
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  #28  
Old 16 Dec 17, 05:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
The SR71 has largely been rendered obsolete, and is hugely expensive to operate for even a single mission. It's job was made obsolete by the plethora of satellites - over 4,000 - currently orbiting the Earth.
that may be the case but the U2 was still in use during iraq. so guess there is a use for high altitude spy planes.
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  #29  
Old 18 Dec 17, 06:52
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Quote:
The SR71 has largely been rendered obsolete, and is hugely expensive to operate for even a single mission. It's job was made obsolete by the plethora of satellites - over 4,000 - currently orbiting the Earth.
But difficult to change satellite coverage in a few hours, so ability to deploy rapidly and ISTAR asset with a long horizon and low vulnerability has its uses. But they are costly.

Quote:
That may be the case but the U2 was still in use during iraq. so guess there is a use for high altitude spy planes.
Ongoing debate about de-manning / developing a replacement but nothing yet decided. One of the circular issues with UAVs / RPS is that their attractiveness is low cost, but as they become more capable this disappears, while the development costs rise steeply. Suddenly it is not worth replacing your proven manned aircraft.
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  #30  
Old 19 Dec 17, 00:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
..One of the circular issues with UAVs / RPS is that their attractiveness is low cost, but as they become more capable this disappears, while the development costs rise steeply. Suddenly it is not worth replacing your proven manned aircraft.
Depending on the mission, drones are tremendously flexible, for example this one can go peek over the horizon and is therefore worth its weight in gold, no need to go to the bother of having to use a big manned chopper, and could also be flown off very small patrol craft-

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