HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Weapons of War > Air Power

Notices and Announcements

Air Power A place to discuss the implements of War in the Air!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 24 Oct 17, 19:05
nastle's Avatar
nastle nastle is offline
Colonel
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lemont Illinois
Posts: 1,810
nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99]
R-60 M

how important was the R-60M in the context of the 80s cold war ?

it seems like it was available in large quantities then and mig-23 carried 4 of them at a time.

How much was it supposed to help the mig-23 in their slash and dash tactics they were supposed to have employed against modern western fighters ? ( see soviet mig-23 manual)

was its smaller maximum range a significant handicap in dogfights ? and was its lower minimum engagement range an advantage ?
Reply With Quote
Facebook Connect and Magazine Promotions

World War II Magazine
$26.95

Armchair General Magazine
$26.95
Military History Magazine
$26.95
  #2  
Old 26 Oct 17, 20:55
Merkava188's Avatar
Merkava188 Merkava188 is offline
Major
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Real Name: Doug Williams
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Sierra Vista
Posts: 1,050
Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99] Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99] Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99]
What is thee R-60 M?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 26 Oct 17, 23:27
Pruitt's Avatar
Pruitt Pruitt is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
France
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Summer Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Real Name: Richard Pruitt
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sulphur, LA
Posts: 27,864
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Google Aphid A.

Pruitt
__________________
Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06 Dec 17, 15:09
Merkava188's Avatar
Merkava188 Merkava188 is offline
Major
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Real Name: Doug Williams
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Sierra Vista
Posts: 1,050
Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99] Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99] Merkava188 is on the path to success [1-99]
Isn't the Aphid a Russian copy of the Sidewinder Missile?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06 Dec 17, 17:35
Pruitt's Avatar
Pruitt Pruitt is offline
ACG Forums - General Staff
France
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive 
100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign 
Summer Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Real Name: Richard Pruitt
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sulphur, LA
Posts: 27,864
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Pruitt has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
A copy does not always work as well as the original. Besides, the first Sidewinders could be spoofed and out maneuvered. Still at close range they were much better than Falcons.

Pruitt
__________________
Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06 Dec 17, 23:14
PitchRate's Avatar
PitchRate PitchRate is offline
Colonel
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Bob
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Great Mid-west
Posts: 1,549
PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200]
Actually the Russian K-13 (NATO AA-2 Atoll) was a copy of the original AIM-9.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07 Dec 17, 12:48
Bluenose's Avatar
Bluenose Bluenose is offline
Major General
UK
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Warwick
Posts: 2,995
Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200] Bluenose is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Actually the Russian K-13 (NATO AA-2 Atoll) was a copy of the original AIM-9.
Is it true that a copy of the AIM-9B front end got to the Soviets after being caught in the aft end of a MiG-15 over the Taiwan Straits?
__________________
History is not tragedy; to understand historical reality, it is sometimes better to not know the end of the story.

Pierre Vidal-Naquet
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07 Dec 17, 14:11
PitchRate's Avatar
PitchRate PitchRate is offline
Colonel
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Bob
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Great Mid-west
Posts: 1,549
PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200] PitchRate is walking in the light [200]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenose View Post
Is it true that a copy of the AIM-9B front end got to the Soviets after being caught in the aft end of a MiG-15 over the Taiwan Straits?
Well before my time. However:

Quote:
The K-13 is an air to air missile of Soviet origin. It was a direct copy of the US AIM-9B Sidewinder air to air missile and introduced in Soviet service in the early 1960's. In the West the K-13 is better known by its NATO reporting name AA-2 Atoll. The USSR came into possession of an AIM-9B which was lodged in the tail of a Chinese MiG-17 but did not explode.
http://weaponsystems.net/weaponsyste...A-2+Atoll.html

I cannot confirm the story. But it is repeated from a respected source:



Quote:
This is the Atoll, an air-to-air missile of the former Soviet Union. Atoll is the NATO code name for the Soviet K-13, a copy of the U.S. Sidewinder air-to-air, heat-seeking missile. Atoll originated in 1958, when a Sidewinder fired from a Taiwanese F-86 fighter in the Taiwan Strait lodged in an aircraft of the People's Republic of China but did not detonate.

China recovered the missile intact and turned it over to the Soviet Union, which copied the design, mass-produced the missile, and exported Atolls to its client states. The Atoll has the same basic dimensions as the Sidewinder but has been modified over the years and is still in use. This object was donated to the Smithsonian in 1993 by the U.S. Air Force.
https://airandspace.si.edu/collectio...ated-k-13-aa-2
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07 Dec 17, 14:28
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 36,757
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Well, let's see.

This missile has a small fragmentation or expanding rod warhead of about 3 to 3.5 kg (7 to 8 lbs). It has a "book" range of about 5 miles but realistically and effectively, it's limited to about 2 to 3.
It uses liquid nitrogen to cool the seeker, but is for all intents a stern chase missile. Not uncommon for the period. Speed is about Mach 2.7.

On the whole, it looks like it's US equivalent would be the AIM 4D missile.

In Syrian on Israeli aerial combat it's scored a few kills, but on the whole I'd say that it is no better than the AIM 4D and that missile wasn't all that good.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08 Dec 17, 14:30
nastle's Avatar
nastle nastle is offline
Colonel
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lemont Illinois
Posts: 1,810
nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Well, let's see.

This missile has a small fragmentation or expanding rod warhead of about 3 to 3.5 kg (7 to 8 lbs). It has a "book" range of about 5 miles but realistically and effectively, it's limited to about 2 to 3.
It uses liquid nitrogen to cool the seeker, but is for all intents a stern chase missile. Not uncommon for the period. Speed is about Mach 2.7.

On the whole, it looks like it's US equivalent would be the AIM 4D missile.

In Syrian on Israeli aerial combat it's scored a few kills, but on the whole I'd say that it is no better than the AIM 4D and that missile wasn't all that good.
Thanks ,
the stern chase missile was the basic R-60

was the R-60M the same ? Ive read it had better all-aspect capability

Last edited by nastle; 08 Dec 17 at 14:37..
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #11  
Old 08 Dec 17, 14:58
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 36,757
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by nastle View Post
Thanks ,
the stern chase missile was the basic R-60

was the R-60M the same ? Ive read it had better all-aspect capability
From what I've read on it, it had some limited capacity to do all-aspect, but it wasn't great at it. Of course, at that time (the 70's / 80's) few IR AAM's really could do all-aspect and even those were very prone to countermeasures.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08 Dec 17, 16:04
nastle's Avatar
nastle nastle is offline
Colonel
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lemont Illinois
Posts: 1,810
nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
From what I've read on it, it had some limited capacity to do all-aspect, but it wasn't great at it. Of course, at that time (the 70's / 80's) few IR AAM's really could do all-aspect and even those were very prone to countermeasures.
True
Were fighters in the 80s routiinely equipped with counter measures ?
I'm thinking like F4 and F16s of turkey norway Japan etc the fighters most likely dealing with Soviet intruders
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08 Dec 17, 16:21
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 36,757
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by nastle View Post
True
Were fighters in the 80s routiinely equipped with counter measures ?
I'm thinking like F4 and F16s of turkey norway Japan etc the fighters most likely dealing with Soviet intruders
Most Western fighters had chaff and flares available. Countries using Warsaw Pact export equipment? Probably not. Most of the time they were the stripper version with minimal electronics on them.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08 Dec 17, 17:41
eddie3rar's Avatar
eddie3rar eddie3rar is offline
Colonel
Australia
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: melbourne
Posts: 1,683
eddie3rar is walking in the light [200] eddie3rar is walking in the light [200] eddie3rar is walking in the light [200] eddie3rar is walking in the light [200] eddie3rar is walking in the light [200] eddie3rar is walking in the light [200] eddie3rar is walking in the light [200] eddie3rar is walking in the light [200] eddie3rar is walking in the light [200] eddie3rar is walking in the light [200] eddie3rar is walking in the light [200]
AA-11 Archer was the one that shocked the West with its lethality and spawned the Western clones, AIM9X etc.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08 Dec 17, 19:23
nastle's Avatar
nastle nastle is offline
Colonel
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lemont Illinois
Posts: 1,810
nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99] nastle is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie3rar View Post
AA-11 Archer was the one that shocked the West with its lethality and spawned the Western clones, AIM9X etc.
it was no better than late model sidewinder
and I wonder how many were available by 1990 when cold war ended ?
apparently 2 per every 4th gen fighter would put stocks at a mere 2600, given there were 800 mig-29 and 400 su-27 in service by 1990
but thats my guess , would be interesting to see if there are any real statistics on its production till 1990 out there

so the bulk of soviet fighters still relied on R-60M until the cold war
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 23:40.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.