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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > North America

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  #451  
Old 07 Oct 17, 02:04
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Originally Posted by phil74501 View Post
How does it not violate your privacy rights? Your mental health records are no different than your other health/medical records. In order for firearms dealers to conduct a background check of your mental health records, would require the FBI to create a national data base of mental health records. That data base would have to include every single person residing in the US...since we don't know who might decide to purchase a firearm at some point in the future. Accessing those health records, to create that data base, would be a violation of every person in this countries privacy rights.

Hence we have a problem. One with 3 solutions:

1) Do nothing.

2) Restrict the rights of ALL Americans in order to prevent the small percentage of actually dangerous persons from gaining access.

3) Determine, in the same way that we did with the criminal element, a point at which the public interest overrides the individual interest of privacy. I would argue that once a person has been determined to be mentally ill and a danger to self or others, and that determination has been confirmed by certified medical evaluation, that it is an overriding public interest that said person not be granted access to firearms. In the interest of passing the reasonableness test, I would put a sunset date on any given record at say 5 years? So if you had a bad divorce, went to a dark place, and wound up committed for a couple of weeks, you're not permanently deprived of your rights.....only for a period of time which allows the public interest in you not being a crazy person with a gun to be satisfied. If you're truly crazy, you're likely to be committed over and over.....and therefore never cross the sunset date.
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  #452  
Old 07 Oct 17, 04:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
Hence we have a problem. One with 3 solutions:

1) Do nothing.

2) Restrict the rights of ALL Americans in order to prevent the small percentage of actually dangerous persons from gaining access.

3) Determine, in the same way that we did with the criminal element, a point at which the public interest overrides the individual interest of privacy. I would argue that once a person has been determined to be mentally ill and a danger to self or others, and that determination has been confirmed by certified medical evaluation, that it is an overriding public interest that said person not be granted access to firearms. In the interest of passing the reasonableness test, I would put a sunset date on any given record at say 5 years? So if you had a bad divorce, went to a dark place, and wound up committed for a couple of weeks, you're not permanently deprived of your rights.....only for a period of time which allows the public interest in you not being a crazy person with a gun to be satisfied. If you're truly crazy, you're likely to be committed over and over.....and therefore never cross the sunset date.
None of the reports in the media mention Paddock having any prior mental illness. There seems to be a complete blank about his motive.
The only suspicious thing is that his father was a bank robber. Unfortunately we can't really punish the children for the sins of their fathers.
Not that it isn't a good idea to stop crazy people havng guns but it wouldn't have helped in this case.
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  #453  
Old 07 Oct 17, 05:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
Hence we have a problem. One with 3 solutions:

1) Do nothing.

2) Restrict the rights of ALL Americans in order to prevent the small percentage of actually dangerous persons from gaining access.

3) Determine, in the same way that we did with the criminal element, a point at which the public interest overrides the individual interest of privacy. I would argue that once a person has been determined to be mentally ill and a danger to self or others, and that determination has been confirmed by certified medical evaluation, that it is an overriding public interest that said person not be granted access to firearms. In the interest of passing the reasonableness test, I would put a sunset date on any given record at say 5 years? So if you had a bad divorce, went to a dark place, and wound up committed for a couple of weeks, you're not permanently deprived of your rights.....only for a period of time which allows the public interest in you not being a crazy person with a gun to be satisfied. If you're truly crazy, you're likely to be committed over and over.....and therefore never cross the sunset date.
Problem is, as pointed out elsewhere, there is no history of mental health issues. They're setting up billboards now seeking public information on why he went off like he did.

Which means the government response to this will just be, essentially, a shrug and "We can't prevent these, sorry." Which does little to reassure a public looking for answers - but does tie back into my point that Americans have, for the most part, just accepted that we will have mass murders from time to time. We tend to act horrified when it happens, but that's just the tax we pay for our culture and legal structure.
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  #454  
Old 07 Oct 17, 06:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
Hence we have a problem. One with 3 solutions:

1) Do nothing.

2) Restrict the rights of ALL Americans in order to prevent the small percentage of actually dangerous persons from gaining access.

3) Determine, in the same way that we did with the criminal element, a point at which the public interest overrides the individual interest of privacy. I would argue that once a person has been determined to be mentally ill and a danger to self or others, and that determination has been confirmed by certified medical evaluation, that it is an overriding public interest that said person not be granted access to firearms. In the interest of passing the reasonableness test, I would put a sunset date on any given record at say 5 years? So if you had a bad divorce, went to a dark place, and wound up committed for a couple of weeks, you're not permanently deprived of your rights.....only for a period of time which allows the public interest in you not being a crazy person with a gun to be satisfied. If you're truly crazy, you're likely to be committed over and over.....and therefore never cross the sunset date.
But isn't there a:
4) Try to restrict the type of guns in public hands. Why would any citizen require an automatic weapon, for example ? At least the number of casualties at any given incident might be reduced, if it's deemed impossible to prevent this sort of thing from happening.
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Last edited by BELGRAVE; 07 Oct 17 at 06:47..
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  #455  
Old 07 Oct 17, 06:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
But isn't there a:
4) Try to restrict the type of weapons in public hands. Why would any citizen require an automatic weapon ?
But you simply don't understand that we do limit weapons. Hell the NRA has come out and said bump stocks should be banned.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/1...-ranges-243495
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  #456  
Old 07 Oct 17, 06:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bwaha View Post
But you simply don't understand that we do limit weapons. Hell the NRA has come out and said bump stocks should be banned.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/1...-ranges-243495
Obviously I don't. But why don't the authorities get serious ?
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  #457  
Old 07 Oct 17, 07:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
But isn't there a:
4) Try to restrict the type of guns in public hands. Why would any citizen require an automatic weapon, for example ? At least the number of casualties at any given incident might be reduced, if it's deemed impossible to prevent this sort of thing from happening.
The issue as I see it has a bit to do with the arguments used as well.

Listen to the NRA crowd and they are rabidly paranoid that everyone is trying to take their guns (I have a hypothesis that gun ownership and paranoia has a correlative effect, but I need more funding to pursue it). The NRA crowd are... well, they're easily lead idiots - with deep pockets - so they will scream and shout and try to paint anyone they disagree with as a gun-stealing commie. You know, like Obama.

The anti-gun crowd is far less unified than the NRA side - hence why we don't really even have one name to use - but even with their smaller organization they are just as incompetent and prone to blathering on like their counterparts on the right. For the most vocal of them, the access to these guns is, itself, the source of crime - as though no real checks can ever be used. They're the type to loudly proclaim that their NRA opponents are seeking to make automatic weapons sold at every street corner and who demonize anything but black powder muskets (and some don't even like those).

In regards to your statement, it echoes one of the bullet points / standard arguments used by the anti-gun crowd, and the simple answer is "If I would like to shoot automatic weapons on my ranch at my own targets, have no history of criminal activity, have paid my taxes and subjected myself to a thorough background check, why shouldn't I be able to choose if I want one or not?"

The gun control argument has a lot of strong points, but it doesn't work well as an absolute, even outside of the Constitutional issue. It's not about need - it's about want. If I want a toy to play with, and have no reason for anyone to stop me, then why should it be denied me?
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  #458  
Old 07 Oct 17, 07:06
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
Obviously I don't. But why don't the authorities get serious ?
Well, depends on what you mean.

On the one hand, as mentioned previously, the NRA has deep pockets and a rabid (zombie-like, really) electorate. They are determined to oppose extensions to gun control no matter what... except when there is a national tragedy. Without the shooting in Vegas, there would have been no NRA push against bump stocks.

But likewise, the anti-gun crowd are a... strange lot. Very strange, at times. What they tend to focus on can make little sense to gun owners. They're also very localized to major cities which are, for the most part, Democratic strongholds. That means that stricter gun control gets passed in areas where the Dems hold sway, but not where the GOP are.

Which comes back around to the real answer: politics. And money, but that's just a facet of politics. The nation has "gotten serious" about guns for a while... but not about things like mental health care and the dangerous more that becomes when discussed. Even when the NRA try to distract by making it just about mental health, that doesn't change that the US as a whole does have quite a lot of gun control legislation on the books.

But perhaps the simlest and most tragic side to that is that, in the end, even places like Norway can be victimized if there is someone dedicated to terror.
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  #459  
Old 07 Oct 17, 07:31
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Originally Posted by BELGRAVE View Post
But isn't there a:
4) Why would any citizen require an automatic weapon, for example ?
To defend himself against criminals with automatic weapons .
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  #460  
Old 07 Oct 17, 07:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
Hence we have a problem. One with 3 solutions:

1) Do nothing.

2) Restrict the rights of ALL Americans in order to prevent the small percentage of actually dangerous persons from gaining access.

3) Determine, in the same way that we did with the criminal element, a point at which the public interest overrides the individual interest of privacy. I would argue that once a person has been determined to be mentally ill and a danger to self or others, and that determination has been confirmed by certified medical evaluation, that it is an overriding public interest that said person not be granted access to firearms. In the interest of passing the reasonableness test, I would put a sunset date on any given record at say 5 years? So if you had a bad divorce, went to a dark place, and wound up committed for a couple of weeks, you're not permanently deprived of your rights.....only for a period of time which allows the public interest in you not being a crazy person with a gun to be satisfied. If you're truly crazy, you're likely to be committed over and over.....and therefore never cross the sunset date.
4) you forget number 4 : more weapons : if more people have more weapons, this means that more innocent people will have more weapons and that the chances of the criminals will decrease .
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  #461  
Old 07 Oct 17, 10:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljadw View Post
4) you forget number 4 : more weapons : if more people have more weapons, this means that more innocent people will have more weapons and that the chances of the criminals will decrease .
Fantasy.



The top ten nations with the most firearms per capital include nations like Finland, Yemen, Sweden and Iraq. The "more guns = less violence" claim is a myth. The number of guns in a system doesn't directly correlate to crime statistic - in both directions. Both those demanding more guns or less as a solution do so without reason or evidence but rely on their own subjective faith filtered through that most horrid of beasts, "common sense".

Also, it should be noted that this graph, and the results, have a lot of room for error. As they point out:
For example, Yemen, ranked near the top with an ownership rate of 54.8, has a low estimate of 28.6 and a high estimate of 81.1. While the United States is ranked for the highest gun ownership rate unambiguously, Yemen (based on the margin of error) may rank anywhere between 2nd and 18th.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esti...ta_by_country#

Which ties us back to the original issue: what causes violence is more than just guns. Guns are, themselves, not a direct cause of crime, but their presence does enable more widespread and destructive crime when it occurs. If the US were to just start air dropping in crates of automatic weapons into Mexico or Libya at random, dispersing them to the population on the breeze, one would expect to see a spike in violence and an exacerbation of their criminal problems.

What is much more important are things like society and culture, the strength of the government, national stability, the reliability of rule of law, and other such factors. Ease of access to firearms can enable criminals to act, and make their acts more costly, but they don't create criminals in the first place. In the hypothetical above, what makes those guns that much of a problem is that both Mexico and Libya already have major criminal / anti-government forces at work.

Weapons don't make a situation better, can make a situation worse, but what has to be remembered above all is that they do not create the situation in the first place.
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  #462  
Old 07 Oct 17, 10:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
Hence we have a problem. One with 3 solutions:

1) Do nothing.

2) Restrict the rights of ALL Americans in order to prevent the small percentage of actually dangerous persons from gaining access.

3) Determine, in the same way that we did with the criminal element, a point at which the public interest overrides the individual interest of privacy. I would argue that once a person has been determined to be mentally ill and a danger to self or others, and that determination has been confirmed by certified medical evaluation, that it is an overriding public interest that said person not be granted access to firearms. In the interest of passing the reasonableness test, I would put a sunset date on any given record at say 5 years? So if you had a bad divorce, went to a dark place, and wound up committed for a couple of weeks, you're not permanently deprived of your rights.....only for a period of time which allows the public interest in you not being a crazy person with a gun to be satisfied. If you're truly crazy, you're likely to be committed over and over.....and therefore never cross the sunset date.
Name one case of a mass shooting where the person fit that definition??? Almost impossible to predict when a person will be a danger to others and or themselves.
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  #463  
Old 07 Oct 17, 10:59
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Name one case of a mass shooting where the person fit that definition??? Almost impossible to predict when a person will be a danger to others and or themselves.
There is the problem of hindsight making it seem "obvious" in retrospect - which is a fairly common problem in general when people Monday morning quarterback law enforcement.
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Old 07 Oct 17, 11:13
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Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
There is the problem of hindsight making it seem "obvious" in retrospect - which is a fairly common problem in general when people Monday morning quarterback law enforcement in general.
The 'crazy' homeless person living in the street are not that hard to ID and would be swept up if we had this kind of law. Sure they commit their share of violent crime. However this type of law would do almost nothing to slow or stop the mass shooter.
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Old 07 Oct 17, 11:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
Fantasy.



The top ten nations with the most firearms per capital include nations like Finland, Yemen, Sweden and Iraq. The "more guns = less violence" claim is a myth. The number of guns in a system doesn't directly correlate to crime statistic - in both directions. Both those demanding more guns or less as a solution do so without reason or evidence but rely on their own subjective faith filtered through that most horrid of beasts, "common sense".

Also, it should be noted that this graph, and the results, have a lot of room for error. As they point out:
For example, Yemen, ranked near the top with an ownership rate of 54.8, has a low estimate of 28.6 and a high estimate of 81.1. While the United States is ranked for the highest gun ownership rate unambiguously, Yemen (based on the margin of error) may rank anywhere between 2nd and 18th.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esti...ta_by_country#

Which ties us back to the original issue: what causes violence is more than just guns. Guns are, themselves, not a direct cause of crime, but their presence does enable more widespread and destructive crime when it occurs. If the US were to just start air dropping in crates of automatic weapons into Mexico or Libya at random, dispersing them to the population on the breeze, one would expect to see a spike in violence and an exacerbation of their criminal problems.

What is much more important are things like society and culture, the strength of the government, national stability, the reliability of rule of law, and other such factors. Ease of access to firearms can enable criminals to act, and make their acts more costly, but they don't create criminals in the first place. In the hypothetical above, what makes those guns that much of a problem is that both Mexico and Libya already have major criminal / anti-government forces at work.

Weapons don't make a situation better, can make a situation worse, but what has to be remembered above all is that they do not create the situation in the first place.
You call it a myth.

I like illogical crock of ____ BS.
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