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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Modern Wars & Warfare > Cold War

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Cold War Discuss aspects of the Cold War not covered in other forums.

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  #151  
Old 18 Jul 17, 07:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
You thought that would happen to me first, eh?

Well, before you go, I had a couple of questions;

What do you mean by "give the means of production to the workers"?
I have no idea how that would apply to a worker in a factory with 1,000 people that is connected to a corporation with 10,000 employees, or how it affects the Griller in a MacDonalds that will probably be gone in 3 weeks or the guy changing the oil in a garage he works at on the weekends.
It means that people will be revarded accroding to the work they perform. Directors and other high grades would be paid not much higher than the rest of people and there wouldn't be shareholders and benefiting from work of others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
And honestly, who are these "Stalinists" ?
Do they have a website?
And how could they even be relevant when Putin has beaten the Communist party so badly so many times?
They're those who like Stalin and consider the country should continue with his policies. Some of them also like Putin, other doesn't.

Present day Communist party is Communist in name only. It's better than the other parties of controlled opposition but still are a pale shadow of a real opposition.

Here are some websites about Stalin.

http://stalinism.ru/
http://www.greatstalin.ru/
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  #152  
Old 19 Jul 17, 13:51
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Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
No, I don't think so. And it's not a realistic scenario anyway. And you can make ironic remarks about "surround" as much as you want but the fact is that it was NATO that moved to the Russian borders not the other way around.
NATO moving further to the east didn't change much in the "surrounding" equation.

There is no way for Russia and China to stop feeling surrounded except for the US to no longer have any presence on the Eurasian continent AND on the island nations around it. Otherwise, there's always going to be some "surrounding" to complain of.
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  #153  
Old 19 Jul 17, 16:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
NATO moving further to the east didn't change much in the "surrounding" equation.
It, did believe me. It was a key event of post-Cold War and affected the mood in Russia in a profound way.
Quote:
There is no way for Russia and China to stop feeling surrounded
How was Russia feeling surrounded in the first half of 90s? I haven't noticed that. There were two events that killed Russian romance with the West in 1990s. One was NATO's expansion to the east and the second - 1999 bombing of Yugoslavia.
In any case the point is that the statement "USA didn't do anything to to cause Russians feeling uneasy" is obviously wrong. They did.
Quote:
There is no way for Russia and China to stop feeling surrounded except for the US to no longer have any presence on the Eurasian continent AND on the island nations around it. Otherwise, there's always going to be some "surrounding" to complain of.
Nope. Russia is quite indifferent in general about US presence in Germany or UK or South Korea. If USA stayed where they were in 1991 there would be no ground for any conflicts.
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  #154  
Old 19 Jul 17, 20:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
It means that people will be revarded accroding to the work they perform. Directors and other high grades would be paid not much higher than the rest of people and there wouldn't be shareholders and benefiting from work of others.
Nice idea, but there are a couple of problems-

We had that a few years ago in the USA, Companies were trying to make part of the pay in Company Stocks. Some might still do that, but I have not heard of any for years now.
The problem was, it wasn't very popular. The only people that like it were at the higher tier, everyone else just wanted cash so that they could do whatever they wanted to with it.

You cannot expect everyone to share your high ideals.
In fact, it seems as if you don't believe that anyone in the world actually does;
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Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
Present day Communist party is Communist in name only. It's better than the other parties of controlled opposition but still are a pale shadow of a real opposition.
Even the Communits Party itself isn't good enough for you?
Wow...

Okay, this thread may have been a painful experience for you, but so it the physical exercise involved in keeping a body healthy. It is the same for the mind. You have to stretch your thoughts, go the distance with your theories and grind your way through opposing ideas one at a time.
And if you are obsessed with this Poly-Sci stuff, then I have a suggestion;
Invent something new.
This is the one thing the world needs most at this point, and is seeing the least of. You never know, you might be the one that does it, so why not try?

Suggestions;
Junk this idea that since people can't Govern themselves then a few top-tier people should Govern hundreds of millions of people. Governance needs a whole new paradigm.
Something that has a positive view of the future of human potential would not just be refreshing, it would be unique ... well, Libertarians are good with that, but it would take a serious amount of re-branding to make any of that seem acceptable. The establishment has been doing a great job of making those guys seem foolish.
Start from scratch. Step outside the 2-dimensional political spectrum and realize that the only sacred rule is that there are no sacred rules.

Good luck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
NATO moving further to the east didn't change much in the "surrounding" equation.

There is no way for Russia and China to stop feeling surrounded except for the US to no longer have any presence on the Eurasian continent AND on the island nations around it. Otherwise, there's always going to be some "surrounding" to complain of.
Yes, and NO.

If people want to feel surrounded, they will. If you give them a reason to feel that way, they must.

"Containment" goes back to Truman's days. It was a reaction to the Emergency Days when China was lost to Communism and the Korean War exploded into reality to end US complacence.
MasArthur wanted to use Atomic Bombs as a Theater of War weapon (instead of a Strategic weapon) as well as blockade China and use Nationalist Chinese troops in Korea. It could well have worked, but Truman and the rest of the Democrats wanted a less aggressive, more passive solution to the whole Red Menace... so instead of one violent war with a definitive ending, we got half-measures and decades of semi-war all over the world.
And in Korea, well, you know it never really ended there.

Over 75 years later, and nobody in charge has had a better idea...?
THAT sucks, bigtime.
The Cold War is over! Enough is enough, we obviously need leadership that know what century they are living in.
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  #155  
Old 19 Jul 17, 21:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
It, did believe me. It was a key event of post-Cold War and affected the mood in Russia in a profound way.
I used to think that it was the fact that the old Communist Party bosses kept control of the infrastructure, whatever they could grab, and made a botch-job of it. Perhaps even deliberately, maybe they wanted to coerce everyone in Russia and lure them back into Communism.

And while the West could have done more, it never occured to me that it would have been better if they had done less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
How was Russia feeling surrounded in the first half of 90s? I haven't noticed that. There were two events that killed Russian romance with the West in 1990s. One was NATO's expansion to the east and the second - 1999 bombing of Yugoslavia.
In any case the point is that the statement "USA didn't do anything to to cause Russians feeling uneasy" is obviously wrong. They did.
I don'y know what version of the news you guys were getting, but what we saw here was mass graves being filled with Bosnian Muslims because a failed state was refusing to cut it's loses and consolidate what it could.
It seems like the Balkans has this hold on Russia, and the weird ability to pull the rest of the world into wars that it has no reason to think twice about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
Nope. Russia is quite indifferent in general about US presence in Germany or UK or South Korea. If USA stayed where they were in 1991 there would be no ground for any conflicts.
I'm NOT indifferent, I think we should have pulled out of ALL of those places, years ago.
NATO needs to go, too. It became something that enabled European nations to go cheap on their own defense and use our man as a shield. Now, it becoming something much darker... something that reminds me that wars with Europeans have killed more than double the number of Americans than all other foreign enemies combined.
Same for you, I am willing to bet.

And as for US bases around the world; they are on lease, the local Government could kick us out of the majority of them at will. They are also a legacy of WW2 in most cases, with skeleton staff and very little offensive power in about 90% of them.
Even Cuba and North Korea are not truly surrounded, their ships can come & go any time they want to, peaceful commerce is like that.

So my advice to Russia; do it like China did. But if at all possible, stay out of debt! That is the real killer. Keep the Big Banks out of it, even if it makes prosperity take twice as long.
It will still be your prosperity if you are careful and patient about it.
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  #156  
Old 20 Jul 17, 03:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichols View Post
Historically speaking the Austro Prussian War is when destabilization began.....why isn't this taught as the beginning of WW2 over there?
It's included in the chapter "Formation/unification of Germany."

This then includes the Great War and (usually) ends with the collapse of the Weimar republic.
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  #157  
Old 20 Jul 17, 05:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
Nice idea, but there are a couple of problems-

You cannot expect everyone to share your high ideals.
In fact, it seems as if you don't believe that anyone in the world actually does;
Then there should be a problem in the system you described since I can hardly imagine many people who will like to earn more with the boss earning less.


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Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
Even the Communits Party itself isn't good enough for you?
Wow...
You can write "beer" on a bottle of horse urine, but it will not turn it into beer.


I don't get what was flow of consciousness that followed.
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  #158  
Old 20 Jul 17, 07:51
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Originally Posted by The Exorcist View Post
I used to think that it was the fact that the old Communist Party bosses kept control of the infrastructure, whatever they could grab, and made a botch-job of it.
Khodorkovsky, Berezovsky etc were not Communist Party bosses. Most post-Soviet oligarchs were men of moderate positions under ancien regime and only gained prominence in late-80s or early 90s.
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  #159  
Old 20 Jul 17, 17:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
It, did believe me. It was a key event of post-Cold War and affected the mood in Russia in a profound way.

How was Russia feeling surrounded in the first half of 90s? I haven't noticed that. There were two events that killed Russian romance with the West in 1990s. One was NATO's expansion to the east and the second - 1999 bombing of Yugoslavia.
In any case the point is that the statement "USA didn't do anything to to cause Russians feeling uneasy" is obviously wrong. They did.
I didn't say it was a non-event or it had no bearing on anything.
But from the standpoint of being surrounded, it didn't change anything.

The arc of the supposed US/NATO circle was already in place in Europe. NATO's expansion further east only meant it moved a bit closer to Russia, resulting in a smaller radius there.
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  #160  
Old 20 Jul 17, 19:30
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Originally Posted by Imperial View Post
I didn't say it was a non-event or it had no bearing on anything.
But from the standpoint of being surrounded, it didn't change anything.

The arc of the supposed US/NATO circle was already in place in Europe. NATO's expansion further east only meant it moved a bit closer to Russia, resulting in a smaller radius there.
There was Ukraine and Georgia who moved towards NATO. Baltics joined NATO. There were also some moves in central Asian republics.
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  #161  
Old 20 Jul 17, 22:05
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Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
There was Ukraine and Georgia who moved towards NATO. Baltics joined NATO. There were also some moves in central Asian republics.
They moved towards NATO, I wonder why...
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  #162  
Old 20 Jul 17, 23:21
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Originally Posted by Javaman View Post
They moved towards NATO, I wonder why...
Because Russians are very-very bad people obviously. In fact every problem between West and Russia is because they are bad and not due to any Western actions. If you want a demonstration of the effect of never-ending anti-Russian propaganda in Western media in the last 15 than here it is.
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  #163  
Old Yesterday, 03:04
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Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
Because Russians are very-very bad people obviously. In fact every problem between West and Russia is because they are bad and not due to any Western actions. If you want a demonstration of the effect of never-ending anti-Russian propaganda in Western media in the last 15 than here it is.
Well... That is rather badly missing sarcasm from you. The movement of those countries towards NATO was something that resulted from USSR's actions and decisions during and following the WW II. Things it had nearly 50 years time of fixing but chose not to. It wouldn't hurt if Russians actually accepted that. Invading and annexing neighboring countries doesn't exactly garner much of a goodwill - neither did imposing communist rule.
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  #164  
Old Yesterday, 11:47
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They moved towards NATO, I wonder why...
Because they are governed by people who aren't interested in good future for their countries.
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