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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > Napoleonic Era

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Napoleonic Era Discuss the many wars fought around the globe around the time of Napoleon. This forum is dedicated to the memory of Ben Weider and our late friend and long time ACG Staff member, Michael Brown, better known here as Post Captain.

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  #46  
Old 26 Jan 12, 07:15
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Tartans Of The British 71st, 79th & 92nd Highlander Regiments

And to save anyone else from getting severe headaches, or tearing their hair out, while studying Scottish Tartans for the remaining British Highland Regiments, here are some examples of their Tartan Setts:

The 71st (Glasgow) Light Infantry Regiment, while having lost most of their special “Scottish Distinctions” before the start of the Waterloo Campaign, fought here wearing their grey trousers, rather than Kilts for this campaign. Their Bagpipers, however, apparently retained their Kilts (according to most sources), and these items of kit were made from the MacKenzie Tartan, of which two examples are provided below:

71st Glasgow Highlanders MacKenzie Tartan 01.jpg 71st Glasgow Highlanders MacKenzie Tartan 02.gif

The 79th (Cameron) Highland Regiment all wore Kilts, except for their Senior Officers, who retained their trousers. The Cameron’s Tartan was known as “Cameron Of Erracht” and was especially designed by Sir John Cameron’s wife, Lady Cameron, upon the raising of his Highland Regiment in 1798:

79th Cameron Highlanders Tartan.gif

And lastly, we have the 92nd (Gordon) Highland Regiment. All the soldiery in these ranks also fought in their Kilts, except for their Senior Officers, of course. The Tartan chosen for this superb Regiment was called, quite simply, “Gordon” and has been used by the men ever since their raising, by the 4th Duke and his Duchess, Jane, in 1794:

92nd Gordon Highlanders Tartan.gif

I know I could (and probably should) have kept this POST within the wonderful “Uniforms Thread”, but as it is directly related to my previous post, and sort of (hopefully) ties up some of the problems associated with British Napoleonic Tartans, I though it more appropriate to pop it here - I only hope nobody really minds or objects!
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  #47  
Old 26 Jan 12, 17:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sep View Post
On an different matter.
What was the difference in uniform between junior corporals,corporals,
senior corporals,sergeants and sergeant-majors, in the prussian army in the nap. war.
See attached chart (from http://centjours.mont-saint-jean.com/unitesPR.php#)

Apart from the sleeve/collar distinctions, Musketeer NCOs had a gold top band on their shako, white gloves, black & white sabre strap & tassel. Their black plumes had a white tip.

Also see http://www.uniforminsignia.org/?opti...53&result=2181 which has illustrations of the Garde insignia
Attached Images
File Type: png Prussian Rank markings.png (40.7 KB, 126 views)

Last edited by Prinz Essling; 26 Jan 12 at 17:38..
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  #48  
Old 26 Jan 12, 23:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95th Rifles View Post
I really wish I could be of some assistance to you Rep, but sadly, I find I don't actually have an answer to your very interesting question, and would, myself, like to know the information you request - any knowledgable helpers out there on Prussians?

Actually, I have a very tricky and annoying problem of my own, which is holding up my research and driving me daft:

What was the Tartan worn by the 42nd's Bagpipers?

I know the rank and file, drummers, NCO’s and junior field Officers, wore Kilts of standard green and black, “The Government Pattern ” Tartan Sett, while Senior Field Officers entered the fray wearing grey trousers or breeches.

Attachment 45708
42nd Highlanders Goverment Tartan Sett

Soldiers of the Grenadier Company wore a Red Over-stripe in their Kilt patterns, (of which two varieties seem to exist – that illustrated here, and another, much simpler variety) which were added over their normal “Government Patterned” Kilts.

Attachment 45709
42nd Highlanders Grenadier Tartan

But when it comes to their Bagpipers – I have to confess I am completely lost:

The British 42nd “Black Watch” Historex Colour Chart shows a small proportion of a Tartan for musicians, but does not describe what this is. And Philip Haythornthwaite, in his glorious book: “Uniforms of Waterloo”, p117, mentions a Royal Stewart Tartan for Pipers, while Ugo Pericoli, in his “1815: The Armies At Waterloo” only shows a Red and Black Kilt (plate 111) and fails to provide any further information for his readers.

Somewhere, in the back of my memory, is the mention of an “Athol” or “Stewart” Tartan for Pipers of the 42nd, but I can’t really afford to rely on my rather dodgy memory these days!

And a book, I just recently found, entitled “The Tartans Of The Clans And Families Of Scotland” by Sir Thomas Innes of Learney, and published 1964 (!), which I hoped would provide the answer, fails not only to help, but completely confuses the issue by including among its amazingly detailed pages, FOUR different Tartans for the name of Stewart!!!!!!!!!!!

Attachment 45710
Hunting So Called Stewart Tartan

Attachment 45711
Royal Or Stewart Tartan

Attachment 45712
Royal Stewart Modern Tartan

Attachment 45713
Stewart Of Athol Tartan

So please, have pity on me, somebody, and put me out of my misery, for I am sure I shall go completely and utterly Tartan Mad!
I have a little book (16cm x 11cm) dated from the 1950s, illustrating all the Scottish tartans, Coats of Arms and clan badges. Each page has strip of tartan, a personage in a contemporary, historic or military get-up and with a short historical note on each of the clans and tartans. The illustrations, and there are about 95 of them, have been well rendered in full colour by an artist by the name of William Semple. So if anyone is interested, I will post them all, but be aware that they are not pictures illustrating Napoleonic uniforms but of historical figures from the Jacobite era through to the contemporary 1950s.

Paul
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  #49  
Old 27 Jan 12, 06:20
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Scottish Tartans

My very good friend, Dibble201Bty, you never fail to surprise me!

Although I understand these illustrations from your "little book of Scottish Tartans" may NOT be military Uniforms, they certainly sound very interesting - hopefully, something from them will help me, and heaven knows! I really need it at the moment - Thank you so very, very much.

And you too, Prinz Essling. There really isn't all that much written about the organisation and uniforms of the Prussian Army, at least I haven't found a lot, so your help, too, is very, very much appreciated.

You are both real GEMS in this wonderful ACG!

My sincerest Thanks,

95th Rifles

Last edited by 95th Rifles; 27 Jan 12 at 10:35..
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  #50  
Old 27 Jan 12, 08:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95th Rifles View Post
What was the Tartan worn by the 42nd's Bagpipers?

I know the rank and file, drummers, NCO’s and junior field Officers, wore Kilts of standard green and black, “The Government Pattern ” Tartan Sett, while Senior Field Officers entered the fray wearing grey trousers or breeches.

Attachment 45708
42nd Highlanders Goverment Tartan Sett

Soldiers of the Grenadier Company wore a Red Over-stripe in their Kilt patterns, (of which two varieties seem to exist – that illustrated here, and another, much simpler variety) which were added over their normal “Government Patterned” Kilts.

Attachment 45709
42nd Highlanders Grenadier Tartan

But when it comes to their Bagpipers – I have to confess I am completely lost:

The British 42nd “Black Watch” Historex Colour Chart shows a small proportion of a Tartan for musicians, but does not describe what this is. And Philip Haythornthwaite, in his glorious book: “Uniforms of Waterloo”, p117, mentions a Royal Stewart Tartan for Pipers, while Ugo Pericoli, in his “1815: The Armies At Waterloo” only shows a Red and Black Kilt (plate 111) and fails to provide any further information for his readers.

Somewhere, in the back of my memory, is the mention of an “Athol” or “Stewart” Tartan for Pipers of the 42nd, but I can’t really afford to rely on my rather dodgy memory these days!

And a book, I just recently found, entitled “The Tartans Of The Clans And Families Of Scotland” by Sir Thomas Innes of Learney, and published 1964 (!), which I hoped would provide the answer, fails not only to help, but completely confuses the issue by including among its amazingly detailed pages, FOUR different Tartans for the name of Stewart!!!!!!!!!!!

Attachment 45710
Hunting So Called Stewart Tartan

Attachment 45711
Royal Or Stewart Tartan

Attachment 45712
Royal Stewart Modern Tartan

Attachment 45713
Stewart Of Athol Tartan

So please, have pity on me, somebody, and put me out of my misery, for I am sure I shall go completely and utterly Tartan Mad!
This from BRITISH NAPOLEONIC UNIFORMS

Quote:
The facings for this Royal Regiment was blue, the officers' lace and buttons were gold and the kilt carried the government sett, also by the name of 'Black Watch'. The Grenadiers, Drummers and Pipers wore a red over stripe on the green turns
I also found this site

http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tar...s.aspx?ref=283

Paul
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‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
All human ills he can subdue,
Or with a bauble or medal
Can win mans heart for you;
And many a blessing know to stew
To make a megloamaniac bright;
Give honour to the dainty Corse,
The Pixie is a little shite.

Last edited by Dibble201Bty; 27 Jan 12 at 08:51..
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  #51  
Old 27 Jan 12, 10:47
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42nd Highland Pipers

You are absolutely BRILLIANT, Dibble201Bty!!!! Very Well Done Indeed!

On reflection, when I got home earlier today, I really, really didn't want you to go to all the time, trouble and effort, copying an entire book, just for me - it really would not have been a constructive use of your very valuable and treasured time. I dashed down here, back to the Local Library, as soon as I could, in the hope I could stop you in time - but you have beaten me to it.

Your information, plus the above Link you have just posted (no. 51), are perfect solutions to my very tricky problem - and for this I am so very, very grateful. Now I can get on with my research work - Thank you, my very kind and helpful friend.

95th Rifles.

Last edited by 95th Rifles; 27 Jan 12 at 11:01..
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  #52  
Old 27 Jan 12, 17:18
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Portuguese Militia

Quote:
Originally Posted by the Iron Duke View Post
Now I have a question for anyone who knows. Did the Portuguese milita or ordonanca have any Cavalry around 1808/1809? And if, do pictures exist. I know that the ordonanca was considered to be enthusiastic but poorly equipped, trained and uniformed, but did better trained and equipped units exist? How were they organised? I understand that there was a distinction between militia and ordonanca and that the militia was considered to be better. Were they financed by weathy private individuals since a proper government didn't exist at the time?
Hi,

Hope this helps

THE AUXILIARY FORCES: THE MILITIA

It was King Joao IV's decrees in the 1640s that were really the background to the auxiliary troops existing at the time of the Napoleonic Wars. These troops were the Militia, the Volunteers and the Ordenanza. Between them they could mobilise every adult male able to bear arms, between the ages of 17 and 60, of every social class and condition anywhere in Portugal.

The new 1806-07 organisation was much more comprehensive and detailed. It called for a force of 48 infantry regiments. They were to be divided into three groups of 16 regiments, each corresponding to one of the three divisions of the Portuguese army. The militia, like the regular units, was also raised by conscription and 'formed of such of the inhabitants, capable of bearing arms, as can be taken from agricultural employments with the least inconvenience'. The officers were from the local gentry and veteran officers were especially sought after. Each militia regiment was based in the same recruiting region as the regular infantry regiments. By October 1807 the country had been divided up into the 48 areas, replacing and potentially greatly augmenting the previous militia force.

On 20 December 1808 the militia was formally ordered re-raised, at the 1806establishment of 48 regiments totalling 52,848 officers and men. Each nine-company regiment was to have a staff, a grenadier company, and two battalions each of four fusilier companies. The establishment consisted of a colonel, two lieutenant-colonels, one major, two adjutants, one quartermaster, two colour bearers, one drum-major and two fifers. Each company had a captain, a lieutenant, two ensigns, four sergeants, eight corporals, eight lance-corporals, one drummer and 121 privates. Each regiment was to have 1,101 officers and men.

Militia uniforms

The pre-1806 units had blue uniforms patterned after those of the regular regiments with facings and distinctions particular to each corps, but these are not known. Buttons and lace could be silver or gold. The uniform decreed on 19 May 1806 for the 48 militia regiments was a blue coatee of the same style as that of the regiments of the line. The turnbacks were the same colour as the piping - scarlet, white or yellow, depending on which of the three military divisions the regiment was attached to. Pantaloons, gaiters and other items were to be the same as those of the line regiments.

Weapons

Arms and accoutrements were to be the same as for the regular troops although, in practice, somewhat older items were expected to be used by the militiamen. The May 1806 regulations mention short muskets for sergeants, but halberds were mentioned for them in 1808, most probably because of the shortage of weapons. In December 1808 there were no arms for the militia, and 1809 found them still largely unarmed and lacking equipment. An October 1809 assessment of the Portuguese forces reported that half of the estimated 50,000 militiamen had no firearms, many men resorting to carrying pikes.

(Abridged)

Chartrand, René, Men At Arms Nº358 - The Portuguese Army of the Napoleonic Wars 3, Osprey

For plates follow the link.

h t t p : // imtw.ru/index.php?showtopic=1590&st=260

Rui Sousa

Last edited by Rui Sousa; 27 Jan 12 at 18:34..
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  #53  
Old 27 Jan 12, 17:31
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Portuguese Militia - cavalry units

Hi,

these are the only cavalry militia volunteers that I know of.

Royal Commerce Volunteers of Lisbon
Authorised raised on 28 December 1808, to consist of a regiment of infantry and a cavalry regiment of four squadrons. Captain Sherer noted of this unit in 1809 that 'even the peaceful merchants formed themselves into corps, and volunteered to perform the duties of the garrison...

Royal Militia Volunteers (Lisbon), 1807-1810
The Royal Mounted Militia Volunteers (Voluntarios Reaes de Milicias a Cavallo) and two regiments of Royal Militia Infantry Volunteers (Voluntarios Reaes de Militias a Pe) were ordered organised in Lisbon from 21 October 1807, just prior to the French occupation.

Chartrand, René, Men At Arms Nº358 - The Portuguese Army of the Napoleonic Wars 3, Osprey

Link to the plates.

h t t p : // imtw.ru/index.php?showtopic=1590&st=260

Last edited by Rui Sousa; 27 Jan 12 at 18:30..
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  #54  
Old 31 Jan 12, 05:44
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The Prussian Army

Quote:
Originally Posted by sep View Post
On an different matter.
What was the difference in uniform between junior corporals,corporals,
senior corporals,sergeants and sergeant-majors, in the prussian army in the nap. war.
Hi Sep, I found this, while I was looking for something completely different (It always seems to happen like this):

http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Prussian_infantry.htm

I don't know whether it will be of much help, but I sincerely hope it is of some interest and use to you.

95th Rifles
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Old 02 Feb 12, 13:56
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General Bruyere

Could someone tell me the color of the uniform of General Bruyere,the picture in the musee de l'Emperi.Ive only seen black and whites of the picture.Dolman,Pelisse,Pants which arent shown.Anyone have a color reproduction scan or print they could e-mail me?Thank's.
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Old 03 Feb 12, 05:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fournier View Post
Could someone tell me the color of the uniform of General Bruyere,the picture in the musee de l'Emperi.Ive only seen black and whites of the picture.Dolman,Pelisse,Pants which arent shown.Anyone have a color reproduction scan or print they could e-mail me?Thank's.
This is all that I have on him

Two pages from the Bucquoy's Les Uniformes du Premier Empire, tome 7, Etat-Major et Services de Saint

The First page is a 'bust' picture (top left of the group of four) and a second page which mentions his name in the text. I can not read French so I'm afraid that someone else will have to assist you with that unless that is, you can read the language.





Paul
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Old 03 Feb 12, 06:58
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Arrow

Nothing in the text about Bruyère' s pelisse colour I' m afraid:

"Bruyère after 1809, as a général divisionnaire ; by Gros."


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Old 05 Jul 12, 08:01
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Tartans

All Tartans were of simpler design back in the Napoleonic Wars. A piper was traditionally a very honorable position and thus the pipe major would have worn a different tartan if he was of sufficient prestige. As to whether all or some pipers would have worn a tartan different to the regulation, there seems to be enough sources saying that they wore the Stewart Tartan, but any reference to the Stewart Tartan as being the Royal Tartan is a Victorian affectation. As to which Stewart Tartan, the hunting tartan is older as they didn't have elaborate dyes naturally occurring in the Highlands, but if the idea was to stir the men with a tune then the "red" Stewart Tartan would certainly help them to stand out when the commander required them. I can not see the point in wearing the hunting tartan.

So by a thin thread of logic , you would be entitled to the opinion that pipers wore the "red" Stewart Tartan.
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Old 05 Jul 12, 08:08
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British blue-grey Trousers at Waterloo

I am having trouble deciding what color to paint British Line Infantry trousers circa 1815. I remember one ref saying that some of the units wore summer white (Waterloo was in summer) like in Spain, the tropics and at home. Others say blue-grey without a second thought as to what that is. Going by what officers wore, which was more blue than grey, perhaps a new set of trousers for the soldier were also this color?

All comments welcome.
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Old 05 Jul 12, 14:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nappyfan View Post
I am having trouble deciding what color to paint British Line Infantry trousers circa 1815. I remember one ref saying that some of the units wore summer white (Waterloo was in summer) like in Spain, the tropics and at home. Others say blue-grey without a second thought as to what that is. Going by what officers wore, which was more blue than grey, perhaps a new set of trousers for the soldier were also this color?

All comments welcome.
Here is a good site.

http://centjours.mont-saint-jean.com...te=14&nation=1

Paul
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