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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Africa

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Africa Issues of modern Africa.

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  #16  
Old 13 Nov 08, 20:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWO View Post
With about 2000 miles of Somali coastline and who know how far out to sea, it will be difficult to patrol. Of course, we could go back to WW2 tactics and start a convoy system to protect shipping. The ultimate goal should be the installation of a strong central government in Somalia.
Theres the nub of it for East Africa. Between the lack of any effective government and massive economic dislocation in the region theft has become epidemic. Part of the increase in piracy around the Indian Ocean may be from the changes in the comercial fishing economy. In many areas the small subsistance fisherman can no longer survive. where there are alternatives for employment fewer pirates operate. It is popular now to point at the large scale fishing operations and describe how the strip mine the fishing water leaving them devastated for years. Thats partially true, but there are other factors at work there as well.

In the Indonesian waters and the South China Sea employment is better and there are visable government institutions. There corruption allows piracy. While a vigrous anti piracy campaign is needed it must be understood that in the short run coming down hard will produce a larger portion of pirates of the Blackbeard sort who murder more ships crews and take the offensive against vulnerable military or police patrols.
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  #17  
Old 14 Nov 08, 01:47
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Originally Posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
Theres the nub of it for East Africa. Between the lack of any effective government and massive economic dislocation in the region theft has become epidemic. Part of the increase in piracy around the Indian Ocean may be from the changes in the comercial fishing economy. In many areas the small subsistance fisherman can no longer survive. where there are alternatives for employment fewer pirates operate. It is popular now to point at the large scale fishing operations and describe how the strip mine the fishing water leaving them devastated for years. Thats partially true, but there are other factors at work there as well.

In the Indonesian waters and the South China Sea employment is better and there are visable government institutions. There corruption allows piracy. While a vigrous anti piracy campaign is needed it must be understood that in the short run coming down hard will produce a larger portion of pirates of the Blackbeard sort who murder more ships crews and take the offensive against vulnerable military or police patrols.
Any of 'em that try that against an R.M. patrol will live to regret it!!!
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  #18  
Old 14 Nov 08, 02:53
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British marines stormed one dhow and killed few pirates!
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  #19  
Old 14 Nov 08, 08:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djordjije View Post
British marines stormed one dhow and killed few pirates!
The amount of Dhows is not the point, more and you would have still got the same result!!
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  #20  
Old 14 Nov 08, 09:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cst784 View Post
Are you thinking of something along the lines of Letters of Marque and Reprisal which are still doable under Article 1 Section of the US Constitution?
I think we obviated the Letters of Marque and Reprisal Clause through some sort of treaty back in the 1800's...The clause is still in the Constitution; but the Treaty Clause supercedes the Letters of Mark and Reprisal Clause.

Although maybe that treaty has outlived its usefulness, like the ABM treaty did.
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  #21  
Old 14 Nov 08, 12:12
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Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
I think we obviated the Letters of Marque and Reprisal Clause through some sort of treaty back in the 1800's...The clause is still in the Constitution; but the Treaty Clause supercedes the Letters of Mark and Reprisal Clause.

Although maybe that treaty has outlived its usefulness, like the ABM treaty did.
I found this on Yale's Avalon Project website and found it interesting;

September 11, 2001 : Attack on America
HR 3076 September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001 (Introduced in the House); October 10, 2001



September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001 (Introduced in the House)

HR 3076 IH
107th CONGRESS
1st Session
H. R. 3076
To authorize the President of the United States to issue letters of marque and reprisal with respect to certain acts of air piracy upon the United States on September 11, 2001, and other similar acts of war planned for the future.
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
October 10, 2001
Mr. PAUL introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on International Relations

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/sept11/hr3076_ih.asp

While I was searching for a treaty in the 18th Century that obviated the Letters Marque and Reprisal clause the only thing that was coming up was the Jay Treaty of 1794. However all of the articles of that treaty were Privateers, Letters of Marque and Reprisal were listed had a time limit of 12 yrs from the date of the treaty ratification and would be therefor nullified by now.
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  #22  
Old 14 Nov 08, 12:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post

While a vigrous anti piracy campaign is needed it must be understood that in the short run coming down hard will produce a larger portion of pirates of the Blackbeard sort who murder more ships crews and take the offensive against vulnerable military or police patrols.
True, but are we willing to take the consequences of extortion? It seems to me that other would be pirates would be encouraged by the world's inaction.
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  #23  
Old 14 Nov 08, 12:45
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A DANISH cargo ship? I'm telling you now, if the Somali pirates are trying to take my LEGO - it's WAR.

Dr. S.[/QUOTE]

lego stealers?!?!?! where?!?!?! why the little...
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  #24  
Old 14 Nov 08, 12:49
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Maybe a Lego flotilla, with little Lego police
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  #25  
Old 14 Nov 08, 12:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djordjije View Post
British marines stormed one dhow and killed few pirates!
yupper that's what they did and now there is less of them scraggly wannabe mofo's...to worry about... cuz remember a single kill is still a good kill

yehhhhhhaaaaaaaa get em Brits
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  #26  
Old 14 Nov 08, 13:59
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Originally Posted by CCWO View Post
True, but are we willing to take the consequences of extortion? It seems to me that other would be pirates would be encouraged by the world's inaction.
Accquicence to extortion or inaction were not my recomendation. My point is instant pacification will not be had by shooting the first poor SOBs caught. Indeed many have been killed or imprisioned already (probablly for not paying their protection money to the local police). If you are going to get serious about suppressing piracy then be prepared for a sustained and 'unpleasant' effort. Quick and simplisitc fixes seldom work and dont reduce the tears.
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Old 14 Nov 08, 14:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
Accquicence to extortion or inaction were not my recomendation. My point is instant pacification will not be had by shooting the first poor SOBs caught. Indeed many have been killed or imprisioned already (probablly for not paying their protection money to the local police). If you are going to get serious about suppressing piracy then be prepared for a sustained and 'unpleasant' effort. Quick and simplisitc fixes seldom work and dont reduce the tears.
I concur, I wasn't suggesting a quick fix. The idea of convoys reduces the requirement to patrol the Somali coast/Gulf of Aden. In the long run, the economic/political mess in Somalia must be addressed to bring a measure of security to the area.
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Old 14 Nov 08, 14:10
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Here's the Daily Mail's take on this.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl....html#comments

It doesn't surprise me to see that the Russian Navy were involved, but from the Baltic Fleet? Have they no presence in the Persian Gulf or Indian Ocean at all now?
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Old 14 Nov 08, 14:19
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Originally Posted by Sign&Print Name View Post
Here's the Daily Mail's take on this.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl....html#comments

It doesn't surprise me to see that the Russian Navy were involved, but from the Baltic Fleet? Have they no presence in the Persian Gulf or Indian Ocean at all now?
The article mentions the Straits of Malacca as "formerly the most pirate infested waterway in the world". What did the locals/world do to reduce piracy?
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Old 14 Nov 08, 15:20
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It was funny for me becouse how did they knew that these people in dhow were pirates? Maybe these poor had some kind of pirate flag!!!
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