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Politics Central An archive of discussions of a political nature that took place here.

 
 
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  #61  
Old 13 Aug 09, 16:17
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Generally the worst I've seen are those who, either as teachers or teacher educators, progress through to their masters or doctorate without ever having spent a day in an actual classroom.

The application of theories in the absence of experience is a joke!

Regards,
Dennis
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  #62  
Old 13 Aug 09, 16:19
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Yes, it is.
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  #63  
Old 13 Aug 09, 19:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AThousandYoung View Post
Perhaps you should revisit the thread, because you're mistaken. YOU started by providing an unsupported fact and a conclusion based on that one fact:



I responded by providing the scientific, peer reviewed research that disagrees with your conclusion and explains why your fact is true and why it does not lead to your conclusion. Your response:



That's where YOU began to insult MY intellectual capacity. YOU started it bud!

Now, as for mentioning that you're a driver and that I am educated and experienced in the field of question - this is not an "appeal to authority" fallacy, which you seem to imply, because the appeal to authority "fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious". I AM a legitimate authority in the field in question, so you can't logically just dismiss what I have to say with no reasoning or specific criticism of my argument whatsoever.

Just as I would not ask a teacher about the details of the best route to take a truck - and the best truck to take - from New York to Texas to Los Angeles in December while carrying a load of wildlife, or the details of the politics of the trucker's union, or the best place to hang out as a cabbie - I don't take random "you don't know what you're talking about" from drivers when talking about educating inner city minority youth of poverty.



Scientifically nearly useless. One person's subjective opinion is not something to set policy by.



Again, those are one person's memories of observations that were taken in a non-scientifically rigorous setting - unless you've done some peer reviewed research or looked it up demonstrating those facts. What it comes down to is that I'm going with the research and you're simply dismissing it out of a sense of Personal Incredulity.



Then you're mistaken. Social sciences are sciences just like the Ideal Gas Law is science despite an individual's inability to determine the exact velocity of each particle in the gas. I hope you don't teach kids in science class that social sciences aren't science! That would be irresponsible and possibly illegal.



Yes, I did that.



Really? Go ahead then. Please prove your point with an example. Let me see the study. I'll send you a PDF of the one I referenced if you like.



Maybe so, but teacher quality IS the biggest factor in student achievement - more than all those other factors. I've already demonstrated that. I'm not sure why you're mentioning all this other stuff. However since you did, investing more money in schools helps with 2, 3, 4, 6 (especially 6...right there you point out the importance of money to the child's education as evidence that money doesn't help the childs education!).



Like the influence of being around educated adults? You don't think you can scientifically investigate that? I don't want to get you upset again, but I think it's disturbing that someone with your skewed views of what science is and how the process works is teaching science to children. You don't understand social sciences at all, and as education is a social science and you say you have taught science classes, this is a very bad sign. I know you'll be offended, but that's honestly my opinion. I'm not trying to lash out at you.



Umm, yes, I'm a science teacher. Science usually works with numbers because this helps gives precise, unambiguous and less biased results, and education is a social science.



I am unsure what you mean by "invested in". Would you clarify? Do you mean I have an irrational desire to focus on numbers? If so, my desire is not irrational. I simply want to study the matter using proper scientific methods.



On that note - my study was focussed on California issues, though the facts I quoted were not only for California I believe.
You are right. I did start it. It sounded like higher education drivel. So, in that you are correct.

What you still don't get is that I don't have any respect for your peer reviewed research. I always gravitated to the veteran teachers that performed in their classroom, as teachers and as mentors to their students. So, we are going to have to agree to disagree. The discussion can't possibly move forward as neither of us is going to budge.

As far as the concept of being 'invested' in my students: Its means just that. Some of the other teachers should chime in, but I think its a fairly common term.

In my case it would be closer to option 3. You sound like a numbers and charts guy, so I am guessing it might not be a side of teaching that would be your strength or even on your radar, which is not to say that you are a bad teacher - we all have strengths and weaknesses. And our students benefit from being exposed to different types of teachers and teaching.

As far as addressing me as driver: you may not have meant to, but it did come across as pompous and elitist. I notice that you still use driver analogies. I am just as experienced as you, hold a valid teacher's cert in one state, and soon will in a second. But, I a digress. Let's just face it: You can't understand why on earth I would choose experience/kids over numbers. I can't understand why on earth you would choose numbers over experience/kids. We are not going to agree!

Oh, and I am not a Bud! I am a ma'am, a Biscuit, or a Heather. But I am not most definitely not a Bud!
  • Main Entry: 2invest
  • Function: verb
  • Etymology: Italian investire to clothe, invest money, from Latin, to clothe
  • Date: 1613
transitive verb 1 : to commit (money) in order to earn a financial return
2 : to make use of for future benefits or advantages <invested her time wisely>
3 : to involve or engage especially emotionally <were deeply invested in their children's lives>intransitive verb : to make an investment
in·vest·able \-ˈves-tə-bəl\ adjective
in·ves·tor \-tər\ noun
  #64  
Old 13 Aug 09, 20:23
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Man, ATY - calling Biscuit "Bud" ranks as one of the dumbest things yu can do one this forum. After all the time you have spent here, you're denser than a lead brick!
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  #65  
Old 14 Aug 09, 08:51
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Originally Posted by Terry Patterson View Post
its all part of his total control plan..its developing very quickly isnt it? wonder who is pulling his strings?
George Soros is neck-deep in Obama's fourth point of contact....

I'm surprised there's that much room up there, what with GE's CEO and all of ACORN up there too....
  #66  
Old 15 Aug 09, 13:39
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Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
That's actually a plus in my books, as the track record of the so-called "intellectuals" is miserable at best.

We need students who are fully equipped to emerge into the world as functioning adults, not as jocks, prom queens, trophy wives, burger flippers or social rebels.
Medical doctors, engineers, teachers, ballistics experts, forensic experts, pharmaceudical (sp?) researchers, materials scientists, air force pilots, military commissioned officers, etc are not functioning adults?
  #67  
Old 15 Aug 09, 13:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D1J1 View Post
Generally the worst I've seen are those who, either as teachers or teacher educators, progress through to their masters or doctorate without ever having spent a day in an actual classroom.

The application of theories in the absence of experience is a joke!

Regards,
Dennis
I don't think that's possible. Do you have any examples?
  #68  
Old 15 Aug 09, 14:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
You are right. I did start it. It sounded like higher education drivel. So, in that you are correct.

What you still don't get is that I don't have any respect for your peer reviewed research.
Then you should not be teaching science. You don't understand science at all.

Quote:
I always gravitated to the veteran teachers that performed in their classroom, as teachers and as mentors to their students.
What does it mean to "perform in the classroom"? Do you mean that when you observe them you get some intuitive sense that these people are doing a good job? Normally performance is evaluated scientifically.

Quote:
So, we are going to have to agree to disagree. The discussion can't possibly move forward as neither of us is going to budge.
OK.

Quote:
As far as the concept of being 'invested' in my students: Its means just that. Some of the other teachers should chime in, but I think its a fairly common term.
Thanks for the definition. I was familiar with the phrase but I thought it was a colloquialism with no precise meaning, which I why I asked you to clarify. It turns out I was mistaken.

So you're deeply, emotionally involved and engaged in your students' lives. So am I. That's why I priotize what has been scientifically demonstrated to be in their best interest with respect to their learning. I'm not sure why your investment in their lives leads to you avoiding what has been scientifically demonstrated to help them learn.

Quote:
In my case it would be closer to option 3.
In your case "it" would be closer to the experience of travelling?

Quote:
You sound like a numbers and charts guy
Correct. I am an educator - a social scientist - and even more, my subject is science. You, as a science teacher, should be too. If you're not, and you don't even try, you're denying your students proper science education. This is not being invested in them.

Quote:
so I am guessing it might not be a side of teaching that would be your strength or even on your radar
You really think doing the job properly means that I don't care about my students? You think that anyone who understands numbers and the scientific process cannot care about those he teaches? Please.

Quote:
As far as addressing me as driver: you may not have meant to, but it did come across as pompous and elitist.
Maybe if you didn't insult my intellect and competence with zero explanation I wouldn't point out that you're apparently not a teacher. Now that you've clarified I won't bring it up again. If YOU bring it up I will not be afraid to talk about it though.

Quote:
I notice that you still use driver analogies.
Because I am explaining why mentioning that you claim to be a driver is relevant, which I did do (yet you seem oblivious to that fact).

Quote:
I am just as experienced as you, hold a valid teacher's cert in one state, and soon will in a second. But, I a digress. Let's just face it: You can't understand why on earth I would choose experience/kids over numbers.
That is correct. Why would a science teacher of all people think she has to choose between the two? If you deny one you deny the other!

Quote:
I can't understand why on earth you would choose numbers over experience/kids.
I don't. You can't understand that I don't have to deny numerical and scientific truth in order to be invested in my science students. I can't understand why you do, or even how it's possible that you do.

Last edited by AThousandYoung; 15 Aug 09 at 14:12..
  #69  
Old 15 Aug 09, 14:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
Man, ATY - calling Biscuit "Bud" ranks as one of the dumbest things yu can do one this forum. After all the time you have spent here, you're denser than a lead brick!
No, saying having respect for scientific peer reviewed research is incompatible with caring about one's science students is even dumber.
  #70  
Old 15 Aug 09, 14:15
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Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
That's actually a plus in my books, as the track record of the so-called "intellectuals" is miserable at best.

We need students who are fully equipped to emerge into the world as functioning adults, not as jocks, prom queens, trophy wives, burger flippers or social rebels.

Sports does supersede many school's agendas. I've seen teachers let go based on their winning percentage and not their effect in the classroom.
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  #71  
Old 15 Aug 09, 14:15
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Originally Posted by TJAdams View Post
Sports does supersede many school's agendas. I've seen teachers let go based on their winning percentage and not their effect in the classroom.
Not any school I've attended or worked at.

By the way, MM, how can anyone get the idea that jocks, prom queens and burger flippers are intellectuals? Bizaare.
  #72  
Old 15 Aug 09, 15:03
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Originally Posted by AThousandYoung View Post
Not any school I've attended or worked at.

By the way, MM, how can anyone get the idea that jocks, prom queens and burger flippers are intellectuals? Bizaare.
Bizarre- yes I find that too, because I was once one or the other a few times, not to mention my driving license is still in good standing.

And believe me, everyone still tells me I'm simple and stupid, scientifically proven too.
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  #73  
Old 16 Aug 09, 10:05
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The preferential treatment for athletes very much does happen. I would think however that is probably more restricted to the schools/systems that have quite a legacy of accomplishment in the sports field. It very much happened in the high school I attended.
  #74  
Old 16 Aug 09, 12:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AThousandYoung View Post
Not any school I've attended or worked at.

By the way, MM, how can anyone get the idea that jocks, prom queens and burger flippers are intellectuals? Bizaare.
Didn't say they were. Perhaps re-reading what I really said will aid you in forming future replies. [QUOTE]We need students who are fully equipped to emerge into the world as functioning adults, not as jocks, prom queens, trophy wives, burger flippers or social rebels. [/QUOTE]

Remedial reading, anyone?
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  #75  
Old 16 Aug 09, 22:02
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[QUOTE=AThousandYoung;1285358]Then you should not be teaching science. You don't understand science at all.

Now see, those are the types of comments that make me question your time in the classroom. You have no idea what I do with my kids and really can't judge it. I am curious as to how many years of actual experience you have as the teacher in a classroom, not student teaching, subbing, etc.?

What does it mean to "perform in the classroom"? Do you mean that when you observe them you get some intuitive sense that these people are doing a good job? Normally performance is evaluated scientifically.

Its not an intuitive sense when you see someone accomplish something. I can look at an activity, approach to a student population, or facet of someone's teaching style and see how it impacts their students. It may work for me and may not, but I can see what they do and try to adjust it to my style if I think it will help my kids plug into my subject matter or keep it with them longer.

Thanks for the definition. I was familiar with the phrase but I thought it was a colloquialism with no precise meaning, which I why I asked you to clarify. It turns out I was mistaken.

So you're deeply, emotionally involved and engaged in your students' lives. So am I. That's why I prioritize what has been scientifically demonstrated to be in their best interest with respect to their learning. I'm not sure why your investment in their lives leads to you avoiding what has been scientifically demonstrated to help them learn.

There is an aspect of emotional investment in my students, but it has to be tempered with what is best for them. Parents can afford to be emotionally involved. I have to weigh what is best for them in my classroom, in an extracurricular activity, or what lessons in civility/character/etc. they will take with them.

In your case "it" would be closer to the experience of travelling?

Not sure what you meant by that one!

Correct. I am an educator - a social scientist - and even more, my subject is science. You, as a science teacher, should be too. If you're not, and you don't even try, you're denying your students proper science education. This is not being invested in them.

Kids aren't a science, though your subject matter might be. There are too many variables to treat them as a study or science experiment. There is an element of art to teaching, as well as a personal touch in adapting to your students needs and getting them to learn.

You really think doing the job properly means that I don't care about my students? You think that anyone who understands numbers and the scientific process cannot care about those he teaches? Please.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, but your reliance on numbers and studies above all else makes me think that is the case for you. Maybe it is, maybe it is not. Its just my opinion.

Maybe if you didn't insult my intellect and competence with zero explanation I wouldn't point out that you're apparently not a teacher. Now that you've clarified I won't bring it up again. If YOU bring it up I will not be afraid to talk about it though.

Here's the link to my certificate. So, if you really want to talk about then bring it on! I do think the certificate should be enough though. It also shows what you know about who is a teacher and who is not.

https://secure.sbec.state.tx.us/SBEC...=531515&mode=C







PROVISIONAL Description Effective Date Expiration Date Status Secondary Physical Education 08/16/1997 Life Valid Grades (6-12)
Secondary Health Education 12/07/1998 Life Valid Grades (6-12)
Secondary Science Composite 12/07/1998 Life Valid Grades (6-12)

Note: the actual cert would not cut and paste, but my name is on my profile and I am 34. Happy hunting!
 

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