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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Happening Now > Politics Central

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Politics Central An archive of discussions of a political nature that took place here.

 
 
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  #1  
Old 21 Aug 09, 09:28
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13th amendment and titles..

American friends...

Could someone please tell me more concerning the failed 13th amendment and its laws on titles of Nobility?

Was carrying titles of nobility immediately prohibited in the US after the succes of the Revolution or was this already the case prior to the Revolution? Doing research on the articles of the Bonapartists in America, it seems that many Bonapartist fugitives tried to keep their titles when they fled to the US after the fall of Napoleon. I read that this question caused quite a political upheaval in US politics in the 1850's...

True or not? Extra info is welcome...



Greets,
Stratego
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  #2  
Old 21 Aug 09, 10:09
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Well, there is a 13th Amendment. It prohibits slavery, and it has generally been considered quite successful. Of course, I have a way to get around it...I don't call them slaves, I like to refer to them as "interns!"

In the US Constitution, Article 1, section 9 (which deals with prohibitions on Congress) specifically says that no titles of nobility can be bestowed.

In other countries, nobility is established for certain specific people as part of their nation's constitution. America, of course, has no provision for accomadating nobility, and as Art.1 Sec.9 specifically prohibit it.

Any French nobility that want to come over can call themselves whatever they want, but the US Constitution has no provision for nobility, and has a specific ban on allowing Congress to grant titles of nobility.

I don't know what more I can say. As for the 13th Amendment, that concerns slaver.

Last edited by Cicero; 21 Aug 09 at 10:18..
  #3  
Old 21 Aug 09, 10:11
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Was there perhaps a 13th amendment that was voted on and then was scraped?

Greets,
Stratego
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  #4  
Old 21 Aug 09, 10:19
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Titles of nobility are prohibited in the text of the US Constitution...
Quote:
Article I - The Legislative Branch

[...]

Section 9 - Limits on Congress

[...]

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State.

Article IV - The States

[...]

Section 4 - Republican government

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

LINK
  #5  
Old 21 Aug 09, 10:22
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Well, there was a long period between the 12th Amendment and the Post-Civil War 13th Amendment. I suppose it may have happended that there was a proposed amendment that never got adopted, but I am not the constitutional historian to ask about that.

I've never heard any proposed 13th Amendment concerning nobility. I've heard of proposed prohibition amendments (one eventually was adopted and then repealed).
  #6  
Old 21 Aug 09, 10:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
[...]

I've never heard any proposed 13th Amendment concerning nobility. I've heard of proposed prohibition amendments (one eventually was adopted and then repealed).
That's because titles of nobility are banned in Articles I and IV of the main body of the Constitution.
  #7  
Old 21 Aug 09, 10:29
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Here, I found the followings to my question...especially the last link is interesting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A9...leon_Bonaparte

http://www.thirdamendment.com/missing.html



Greets,
Stratego
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  #8  
Old 21 Aug 09, 10:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratego View Post
Here, I found the followings to my question...especially the last link is interesting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A9...leon_Bonaparte

http://www.thirdamendment.com/missing.html



Greets,
Stratego
From your first link...

"This article does not cite any references or sources."

From your second link...

"No debates about the amendment are recorded in the Annals of Congress or contemporary newspapers,(37) so the reasons for its proposal are a matter of some speculation."
  #9  
Old 21 Aug 09, 10:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
From your first link...

"This article does not cite any references or sources."

From your second link...

"No debates about the amendment are recorded in the Annals of Congress or contemporary newspapers,(37) so the reasons for its proposal are a matter of some speculation."
Well the first link was just to show how I fell upon this mysterious case of the 13th amendment (of course it's Wiki)...

"There is some speculation that he is the reason that the 11th Congress of the United States in 1810 proposed an amendment to the U.S. Constitution to strip an American citizen of his or her citizenship if he or she accepts a title of nobility from a foreign nation. The amendment came close to being ratified by the legislatures of enough states to become part of the U.S. Constitution, lacking the approval of only two."

Well if there is nothing special or mysterious about the 13th amendment, then I rest my case !

Thanks for keeping me informed



Greets,
Stratego
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  #10  
Old 21 Aug 09, 10:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
That's because titles of nobility are banned in Articles I and IV of the main body of the Constitution.

Yet I have met a couple of US citizens who have a "Sir" and "Lord" added to their names......It is possible to "Buy" a surplus nobility from the British Government...non transferable upon death to your heirs.....


Note....These US citizens lived in the Caribbean

per ardua ad astra
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  #11  
Old 21 Aug 09, 10:55
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That section is why I refuse to call previous US Presidents by that title and I cringe when I hear them addressed that way. Same with previous Speakers of the House etc. Sorry, once you don't hold the office, you don't own the name for that office.
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  #12  
Old 21 Aug 09, 11:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bow View Post
Yet I have met a couple of US citizens who have a "Sir" and "Lord" added to their names......It is possible to "Buy" a surplus nobility from the British Government...non transferable upon death to your heirs.....


Note....These US citizens lived in the Caribbean

per ardua ad astra
In the Tom Clancy books, Jack Ryan was knighted after Patriot Games... In Great Britain he was called Sir Jack... In the USA he had no title of nobility.

A US citizen can accept a foreign title of nobility; but cannot maintain that title in the USA.

Maybe Stratego's mysterious 13th Amendment was designed to close that loophole... It's just odd that there don't seem to be any historical references to it.

Constitutional amendments have gotten "lost." In 1992 a lost amendment from 1789 was ratified...
Quote:
27th Amendment
The 27th Amendment was originally proposed on September 25, 1789, as an article in the original Bill of Rights. It did not pass the required number of states with the articles we now know as the first ten amendments. It sat, unratified and with no expiration date, in constitutional limbo, for more than 80 years when Ohio ratified it to protest a congressional pay hike; no other states followed Ohio's lead, however. Again it languished, for more than 100 years.

In 1978, Wyoming ratified the amendment, but there was again, no follow-up by the remaining states. Then, in the early 1980's, Gregory Watson, an aide to a Texas legislator, took up the proposed amendment's cause. From 1983 to 1992, the requisite number of states ratified the amendment, and it was declared ratified on May 7, 1992 (74,003 days)... LINK
  #13  
Old 21 Aug 09, 11:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratego View Post
Well the first link was just to show how I fell upon this mysterious case of the 13th amendment (of course it's Wiki)...

[...]

Well if there is nothing special or mysterious about the 13th amendment, then I rest my case !

Thanks for keeping me informed



Greets,
Stratego
I'm not saying it's impossible... But it seems as if there should be some documentation of it.
  #14  
Old 21 Aug 09, 11:11
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It appears that this missing amendment was actually proposed...

Quote:
2) Was there actually a Thirteenth Amendment that did not become part of the Constitution?

Yes. In January 1810, Republican (the ancestors of the modern Democrats) Senator Philip Reed introduced an amendment that, after twice being considered by a committee, was approved by the Senate by a vote of 19 to 5 on April 26, 1810. The House then on May 1, 1810 approved the amendment by a vote of 87 to 3. (See Conklin at 123) As approved, the text was as follows:

If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive or retain any title of nobility or honour, or shall, without the consent of Congress accept and retain any present, pension, office or emolument of any kind whatever, from any emperor, king, prince or foreign power, such person shall cease to be a citizen of the United States and shall be incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under them, or either of them.


3) Why was it proposed?

No debates about the proposal survive, so it is a matter of some dispute. The conventions that approved the Constitution in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, and Rhode Island had advocated strengthening the Constitutional requirement that any person holding office under the United States government obtain the consent of Congress before accepting any present or title from a foreign power. The First Congress considered similar proposals during the discussion of the amendments that would become the Bill of Rights, but did not submit any of them to the states. (See Ames at 186)
One theory is that the amendment was a reaction to the involvement of Napoleon's nephew, Jerome Bonaparte, in American public life a few years earlier. Nathaniel Macon (a Republican from North Carolina) noted that "he considered the vote on this question as deciding whether or not we were to have members of the Legion of Honor in this country." The Federalists thus may have introduced the proposal in an attempt to embarrass francophile Republicans, or alternatively supported the proposal in order to avoid embarrassment about their own associations with the British aristocracy. (See Ames at 187, Earle at 37) Another theory is that the amendment reflected the general animosity to foreigners evident before the War of 1812. (See Ames at 188, Conklin at 124)

There is not a shread of evidence to support the extremist theory that the amendment was part of an international banking/legal conspiracy, as claimed by extremists.


4) What became of the proposed amendment?

Twelve states ratified the amendment, not enough to make it part of the Constitution under Article V of the Constitution, which requires ratification of "the legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress."

According to President James Monroe's Secretary of State, John Quincy Adams, in reports dated February 3, 1818 and February 27, 1818, the following actions transpired:

Ratifications:
Maryland December 25, 1810
Kentucky January 31, 1811
Ohio January 31, 1811
Delaware February 2, 1811
Pennsylvania February 6, 1811
New Jersey February 13, 1811
Vermont October 24, 1811
Tennessee November 21, 1811
Georgia December 31, 1811
North Carolina December 23, 1811
Massachusetts February 27, 1812
New Hampshire December 9, 1812


Rejections:
Connecticut May 13, 1813
New York March 12, 1812
Rhode Island September 15, 1814


No Action:
South Carolina


No Reply:
Virginia


(See CIS at 478, Conklin at 125) A secondary source further claims that the federal government recorded that no action was taken upon the amendment by Louisiana. (See Virginia Commission at 65)

Because the amendment was not submitted to the states with a time limitation, it could still could be made part of the Constitution, if it were to attract twenty-six additional ratifications. The prospects hardly seem likely, but much the same was once said about the now-27th amendment, which is generally credited to have been rescued from obscurity by Gregory Watson....LINK
  #15  
Old 21 Aug 09, 11:54
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Originally, there were 12 amendments proposed for inclusion. Only 10 were adopted (Bill of Rights). The 27th amendment was one of the original 12. It was ratified May 7, 1992 by the vote of Michigan.
 

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