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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II > Governments & Organizations

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Governments & Organizations Unit histories, OOB, political parties, OSS, Waffen-SS; if it has anything to do with the functioning of military or government organizations, this is the place for it.

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  #121  
Old 17 Jun 15, 19:46
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Finished Endgame at Stalingrad II....

Weh!! Those four volumes took since 2014. What an extremely long read! Glad I did it though- I learned a lot and benefited from it.

It's the best op history I've ever encountered and read.

I am going to do some follow up reads but at a snails' pace:

-After Stalingrad
-Re-read From Don to the Dnepr and Beyond Stalingrad.
-finish Leningrad 1941-1944

Before I do this, I will probably read History of 2.Guards TA

Last edited by Cult Icon; 18 Jun 15 at 12:00..
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  #122  
Old 18 Jun 15, 02:19
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It is interesting that the casualty ratio dramatically shifts in favor of the Soviets in the 'switch' stage. From Case blue to pre-Uranus the loss ratio is 6.5:1 (Soviets: Axis)

In Stalingrad itself, the loss ratio is 3:1 (Soviets:Germans)


In the next phase of the Stalingrad campaign (Attacks against Axis Allies, other German armies, Uranus to Stalingrad end), the casualties even out to around 1:1. The Axis lose double the men of the prior phase.

The losses of Soviets:Germans reverses in Operation Ring to 1:4.

2.7 million Axis and Soviet casualties combined.

What stands out with this campaign is the hardness of the fighting by both sides, particularly 62nd Army and 6.A/4.PzA. Both in the main, fought with a level of determination and courage that is much higher than most other times of the war.

Last edited by Cult Icon; 18 Jun 15 at 17:15..
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Old 18 Jun 15, 13:01
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I'll take a look at this later, but the Glantz/House re-telling is not based largely on the German but both and including Soviet sources- they have their own interpretation of what happened as I have just posted.

In the past, I have read the Balck/Mellanthin memoir accounts and the Balck interview by the US Army. It was difficult getting Balck there in the first place and if you read behind the lines, the US officers were appealing to their big egos, and goading the two generals to talk & expand on their POV by talking to them like they were rockstars.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
What?

What?
Actually German attacked one tank brigade of the 1 TC at the farm, which lost something like a couple of T-60/70 light tanks. See for more info:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...43351#p1043351
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...43403#p1043403
Hordes of Red tanks destroyed are fairy-tales Mellenthin and Balck were telling naive Americans after the war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
Who is RN?
The episode is just a pure example of an event blown out of proportion in German accounts. While depicted as an epic panzer battle it was in fact an indecisive engagement with a moderate losses on the Soviet side. It appears that the 1 TC which didn't really recover from "Uranus" had in fact less operational tanks than the German 11 PzD had.
It is mentioned that 1 TC received a large pool of reinforcement armor- something like 100 tanks after its losses from Uranus. Also, damaged armor must have been repaired.

I might take a look at this later but really I'm not that into the Chir battle. Between the two German thrusts, the LVII PzK's effort is more interesting.

What is also interesting is the not well known complement to Little Saturn: The also large Tormosin and Kotel'nikovskii offensives, which involved huge numbers of armor as well.

Our RN Armstrong helped Glantz/House.

Last edited by Cult Icon; 18 Jun 15 at 15:11..
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