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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Forum Resources > Armchair Attacks! > Warships Campaign 2017-2018

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Warships Campaign 2017-2018 Debate the Great Ships of Naval History

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  #61  
Old 19 Feb 18, 20:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
No worries and thanks for the expression of support.

I have now got a preliminary working total of 74 warships, from 11 different nations/powers (listed in alphabetical order):
  • Barbary States
  • Denmark/Norway
  • England/Britain
  • France
  • Holland
  • Russia
  • Spain
  • Sweden
  • Turkey/Ottoman Empire
  • USA
  • Venice

Some of these will have more types than others, depending on their prominence or importance as a maritime power. For example, the English/British and the Dutch will have a larger number each while at the other end of the scale, Venice will only have one or at most two, given that its status as a maritime power was all but vanishing during this period.

However, it's possible that I could make some adjustments to any or all of these powers as I go along and discover more information.
I decided not to include any of the east Asian powers in this particular tournament as their most successful/interesting types were, as far as I can see, already dealt with in T1 and in some cases these same basic types continued to serve well into the period covered by T2.
However, east Asian warships are certainly planned to make a return appearance in T3 and T4.

A substantial proportion of the warships will be of same basic class or type but with variations from one nation to another or one time to another.
The 74 will of course be culled down to the required 64 for the tournament.
(Starting with a small surplus of types allows me to remove some if I find insufficient information or if I can't get reasonable pictures).

I'm busy gathering and editing more images at this point and will need a lot more still, which will keep me occupied for a while yet.
Then after the final cull, it's the writing-up for each of the 64, and working out the initial pairings.

Will keep folks posted on my progress from time to time.
HI Paul, was wondering if I was missing something but see you are still deeply involved. Cheers, lcm1
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  #62  
Old 20 Feb 18, 00:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcm1 View Post
HI Paul, was wondering if I was missing something but see you are still deeply involved. Cheers, lcm1
No problem.
I'll make sure everyone knows when it's ready to start.
In the meantime, I've been continuing to gather some darned fine pictures!
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  #63  
Old 12 Mar 18, 08:13
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Cool

How we doin', there, Paul? Just checking.
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  #64  
Old 13 Mar 18, 07:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose50 View Post
How we doin', there, Paul? Just checking.
Background info for this update:

I'd already decided to give everyone an update on T2 (Tournament 2) by 15 March (middle of the month).
However, today (13 March) is close enough I guess.
Although I've had considerably less spare time than usual in the period following T1 - even more so in the last several weeks - I'm pleased to say that further significant progress has been made.
Before I say exactly how far I've got, just a few words of explanation so folks can understand what's been going on all this time:

As you guys already know, I've been researching and gathering images over a wide range of potential warship types so that I can end up with 64 candidates.
This is because I didn't think 32 types (which is what I had in T1) was going to give satisfactory basic coverage, despite the fact that T2 will span "only" 250 years.
On the other hand, some members might think 64 is overkill but I'd like to run the same paired elimination process I've been using in all my tournaments so far.
This of course means having 16, or 32, or 64, or 128 (etc) as we all know.
By about mid February, I'd already checked out well over 100 possible candidates.
Within another week or two, I'd ended up eliminating many of them because I found it too difficult to obtain satisfactory images.
Yes, information is very important but I also like to have at least 2 or 3 reasonable quality pictures of each type.

So, where I'm at right now:

I have 66 candidates left so I'll be eliminating 2 more to get my 64.
The last two I eliminate will be the two for which it is most difficult to get satisfactory information and, in particular, reasonable pictures.

I am satisfied (and in some cases delighted) with the amount and quality of information & pictures for at least 40 of them.
For about another 15, I have perfectly satisfactory information but still need to find at least one more reasonable image (preferably 2) which I'm currently working on.
For the remaining few (45 + 15 means I need at least another 9 out of the remaining 11) I'm still working both on information and image searching; images being the hardest part.

Judging by my progress over the last few weeks, I think being ready to go by the end of March or maybe at worst, first week of April - give or take a few days - is realistic.

Additional points worth noting:

The selection of warship types we end up with for T2 will - in a fair proportion of cases - be at least influenced if not practically dictated by availability of reasonable pictures.
For example, I was very disappointed with how relatively few decently usable images of Ottoman Turkish warships were available.
That is, compared to others such as English/British, Dutch and even American types.
(I say "even American types" because the Americans didn't begin to build their own navy until the last portion of the period I'm covering; 1601-1850.)
Therefore, although I intended to include - for example - at least half a dozen Turkish warship types within this period, I think I am now down to 3; or is it 2?
In other words, countries/nations for which information and especially reasonable quality images are more readily findable, will tend to end up being somewhat over-represented.

(Note: I anticipate having a bit less difficulty with this aspect in T3 and T4, which will take us into the age of photography. )
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Last edited by panther3485; 13 Mar 18 at 09:06..
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  #65  
Old 02 Apr 18, 09:18
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Much closer now ...

Hi folks,
An update on progress with T2:

I have finished acquiring sufficient pictures/images of the necessary number of warship types (64); plus a quantity of extra types to assist in the final selection.
I've already edited and/or re-sized many of the images I've gathered so they can be ready for use.
In addition, I have sufficient basic information for more than half of the warship types and I'm currently working on the remainder.

To make sure I had enough ships to start the tournament (64), I researched at least, I think, 130 types because I knew I would end up discarding a fair number of them for one reason or another.
(I investigated an additional 20+ since my last post above.)
Among the more common reasons for having to discard some types was simple pragmatism on my part:
Either there was insufficient information or, much more often, a severe lack of adequate usable images to support them.

Therefore, the choices were far from always the most important or significant warships for each nation and period but I think I've done well enough to cover a passably good number of those.
So, you will be seeing some warship types that are arguably less worthy of inclusion than others that I haven't included, simply because better information or pictures were easier to find.
Also - as explained from the very beginning - Asian warship types are not included at all in this particular tournament but we'll see them in the next two, for sure.

Another thing I've chosen to do is to cover a greater number of warship types for the more important and influential seafaring nations, with far fewer, in some cases just one or two, for the "minor players".
But even this factor has - to a considerable extent - been influenced by the availability of pics and info ... especially pics. So an optimal "balance" isn't really there.
My apologies up front for this.

Anyway, I'm determined to have this tournament up and running before the end of the month.
It's difficult to say exactly when, for more than one reason.
Apart from the work part of it, I've been advised of the possibility that ACG may receive a long awaited software upgrade soon; possibly some time over the next couple of weeks.
I'm inclined to hold off until after that happens so that I can familiarize myself with the "new look ACG" before proceeding.
However, if this upgrade has not occurred by the final week of this month I'll most likely proceed anyway.
So, as far as I'm concerned it's no later than the last weekend of April, regardless.

Please see following post for further information and an opportunity to help me make a few warship choices for the final 64.
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Last edited by panther3485; 03 Apr 18 at 03:06..
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  #66  
Old 02 Apr 18, 09:42
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I need to remove 7 of these 14

Hi guys,

Because of my extra research, even after culling out dozens of potential candidates for mostly practical reasons, I've finished up with 71 ship types.
This needs to be cut down to 64 and that means eliminating 7 types from the starting line.
Below is my list of 14 types that I'm considering for removal.
If you feel inclined, please tell me which 7 of the 14 you believe should go.
Give reasons if you wish to or can; but no obligation:

#21 Dutch Frigate 1701-1860
#29 British Two-Decker 1701-1800
#38 French Cutter 1701-1860
#40 French Corvette & Brig 1701-1800
#51 Portuguese Galleon/early Great Ship 1601-1700
#53 Russian Cutter 1701-1800
#57 Russian Brig 1801-1860
#59 Spanish Xebec 1701-1800
#60 Spanish Two-Decker 1701-1800
#62 Swedish Galleon 1601-1700
#66 Swedish East Indiaman 1701-1800
#68 Swedish Ship-of-the-Line 1701-1860
#69 Venetian Galleon 1601-1700
#70 Venetian Xebec & Polacca 1601-1797


The following post will show the entire list as it currently stands, which may help in your deliberations.

Edit: Don't all rush me at once, now! One at a time, please!
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"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

Last edited by panther3485; 03 Apr 18 at 03:15..
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  #67  
Old 02 Apr 18, 09:45
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Here's the whole list

Please see below the entire list.
These 71 types need to be culled down to 64.
If you'd like to help with the decisions, please select 7 ship types from the list in the above post only, to be removed from the list below.
(All ship types not shown in the previous post are ones I want to keep.)

1 American small warships - Brigs and Sloops 1775-1815
2 American Man-of-War (conv merch'man) & Frigate 1775-1815
3 American "Two-Decker" converted from Indiaman 1775-1815
4 American Armed Schooner 1775-1815
5 American Great lakes Sloop-of-War 1801-1815
6 American Great Lakes Brig-of-War 1801-1815
7 American Frigate 1801-1860
8 American Heavy Frigate 1801-1860
9 American Ship-of-the-line 1801-1860
10 Barbary Xebec & Polacca 1601-1815
11 Brandenburg Great Ship/early Ship-of-the-Line 1601-1700
12 Dano-Norwegian Great Ship/early Ship-of-the-Line 1601-1700
13 Dano-Norwegian Ship-of-the-line 1701-1800
14 Dano-Norwegian Danish gunboat 1801-1860
15 Dano-Norwegian Frigate 1801-1860
16 Dutch Small Warship or Frigate equivalent 1601-1700
17 Dutch 2-Deck & med warships (incl conv indman) 1601-1700
18 Dutch Great Ship/early Ship-of-the-Line 1601-1700
19 Dutch Fire Ship 1601-1700
20 Dutch East Indiaman 1701-1800
21 Dutch Frigate 1701-1860
22 Dutch Ship-of-the-Line 1701-1860
23 English 2-Decker 1601-1700
24 English Great Ship/early Ship-of-the-Line 1601-1700
25 British Cutter 1701-1860
26 British Bomb Ketch/vessel 1701-1860
27 British Sloop of War 1701-1860
28 British Frigate 1701-1800
29 British Two-Decker 1701-1800
30 British Ship-of-the-Line 1701-1800
31 British Great lakes Sloop & Brig 1801-1815
32 British Great Lakes Frigate 1801-1815
33 British Great Lakes Ship-of-the-Line 1801-1815
34 British Frigate 1801-1860
35 British Ship-of-the-line 1801-1860
36 French Bomb Ketch/vessel 1601-1860
37 French Great Ship/early Ship-of-the-Line 1601-1700
38 French Cutter 1701-1860
39 French Chebec and Polacca 1701-1800
40 French Corvette & Brig 1701-1800
41 French Frigate 1701-1800
42 French Two-Decker 1701-1800
43 French Ship-of-the-Line 1701-1800
44 French Frigate 1801-1860
45 French Ship-of-the-Line 1801-1860
46 Greek Brig 1801-1860
47 Ottoman Greek Polacca 1701-1800
48 Ottoman/Turkish 2-Decker & medium rate Ship-of-the-Line 1701-1800
49 Ottoman/Turkish Ship-of-the-Line 1st or 2nd rate 1701-1860
50 Polish Galleon 1601-1700
51 Portuguese Galleon/early Great Ship 1601-1700
52 Portuguese Ship-of-the-Line 1701-1860
53 Russian Cutter 1701-1800
54 Russian Galley 1701-1800
55 Russian Frigate 1701-1860
56 Russian Ship-of-the-Line 1701-1860
57 Russian Brig 1801-1860
58 Spanish Galleon 1601-1700
59 Spanish Xebec 1701-1800
60 Spanish Two-Decker 1701-1800
61 Spanish Ship of the Line 1701-1860
62 Swedish Galleon 1601-1700
63 Swedish Great Ship/early Ship-of-the-Line 1601-1700
64 Swedish Galley & Pojama 1601-1860
65 Swedish Hemmema 1701-1860
66 Swedish East Indiaman 1701-1800
67 Swedish Frigate 1701-1860
68 Swedish Ship-of-the-Line 1701-1860
69 Venetian Galleon 1601-1700
70 Venetian Xebec & Polacca 1601-1797
71 Venetian Heavy Frigate / 4rate Ship of Line 1701-1797

Best to all,
Paul
PS: If you're anything like me, I'm champing at the bit now, to get into this.
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Last edited by panther3485; 02 Apr 18 at 10:12..
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Old 04 Apr 18, 18:16
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You might want to hold off a bit until the now constant forum crashes are resolved.
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Old 05 Apr 18, 07:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
You might want to hold off a bit until the now constant forum crashes are resolved.
I'm hoping those troubles will be over before the end of this month.
OK, so I'm an optimist.

Regardless, I don't want T2 starting too much later, as I'd like to fit in T3 and T4 before the end of this year, to complete the whole series.
After all, I have called it the "2017-2018 Warships Campaign".
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Old 07 Apr 18, 13:21
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I can't wait for round 2.
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Old 07 Apr 18, 13:43
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Yes, I'm itching to go and hoping that the problems with forum outages can finally be considered reliably resolved by the end of this month.

I've received no suggestions on which 7 warship types to remove from the list.
Not a problem at all; I just wanted to offer the opportunity if anyone was interested enough.
I'll make up my mind this weekend, which ones are getting the chop; so I can move into the final stage of preparation.
This will involve deciding on the pairings for Round 1, gathering the remaining information that's needed and putting together the wording for each pair.
That will probably take out most of my available time for the next 2 - 3 weeks, which will bring us to (or near) the end of April anyway.
I've enjoyed having several days off but starting tomorrow night, it's back to work.
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"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

Last edited by panther3485; 07 Apr 18 at 13:55..
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  #72  
Old 07 Apr 18, 15:04
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I was going ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by panther3485 View Post
Yes, I'm itching to go and hoping that the problems with forum outages can finally be considered reliably resolved by the end of this month.

I've received no suggestions on which 7 warship types to remove from the list.
Not a problem at all; I just wanted to offer the opportunity if anyone was interested enough.
I'll make up my mind this weekend, which ones are getting the chop; so I can move into the final stage of preparation.
This will involve deciding on the pairings for Round 1, gathering the remaining information that's needed and putting together the wording for each pair.
That will probably take out most of my available time for the next 2 - 3 weeks, which will bring us to (or near) the end of April anyway.
I've enjoyed having several days off but starting tomorrow night, it's back to work.
... to make a suggestion, but there are 9 US ships listed, and had difficulty deciding which 7 should go!



I was a bit surprised to not see any of the Quebec built Frigates and ships of the line included (60's and a 72). The first of many Canadien built "Corvettes" was actually launched in 1745, although the most famous were built 2 centuries later, and the name re-applied, then to those in the RN as well.

Seriously, you're doing a fantastic job!
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Old 07 Apr 18, 22:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
... to make a suggestion, but there are 9 US ships listed, and had difficulty deciding which 7 should go!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
I was a bit surprised to not see any of the Quebec built Frigates and ships of the line included (60's and a 72). The first of many Canadien built "Corvettes" was actually launched in 1745, although the most famous were built 2 centuries later, and the name re-applied, then to those in the RN as well.
I did source a number of my candidates from books (mostly Ospreys) but as you might imagine, many of the warships I "found" were discovered via internet searches.
For this particular period at least (1601 to 1850/60), I would in any case have been inclined to count warships built in a British colony as being - for classification purposes - British.
I may consider taking a different approach for T3 (1851-1906) and will most certainly do so for T4, which will cover the beginning of the Dreadnought era and both World Wars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
Seriously, you're doing a fantastic job!
Thanks.
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"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

Last edited by panther3485; 07 Apr 18 at 22:25..
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Old 14 Apr 18, 10:31
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Quick update

Recently completed

(1) Culling of 7 excess candidates (as per post #66) was done; the remainder being the required 64 ships to start a 6-round tournament.
(2) All pairings are now decided.


In progress

(3) Final selection and editing of pics from my pool, for each of the 32 pairings in Round 1.


Commencing within the coming week

(4) Write-ups for each of the 64 candidates.


In other words, progressing more or less in accordance with my last amended plan.


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"England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

Last edited by panther3485; 14 Apr 18 at 10:48..
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