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  #46  
Old 07 May 12, 09:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimi View Post
so you're saying that theres no "unnecessary" spending and the wealth will eventually trickle down? Huh... call me old fashioned but wealth and riches are created by working in my world, not by throwing all the money can borrow out the window.
That's not what I'm saying. The word "unnecessary" in this context means items not essential to daily eating and drinking - I was also talking
consumer spending.

Let's say that Alicia and her son Wilhelm like to go to their local restaurant once a week, while Wilhelm buys tabletop games from his local stockist. If Alicia loses her job as her company can no longer afford to employ her following the loss of a government contract, then they're not going to be able to go to said restaurant and Wilhelm is not going to be able to go to his shop any more.

Ergo, both businesses lose out on their custom. If others start going, they might end up going out of business, with the result redundancy of their staff. Said staff are now going to be claiming unemployment benefit.
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  #47  
Old 07 May 12, 10:33
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Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
Problem with all that is that the crisis did not result from government defecit spending, it came about because mismanagement in the commercial financial sector.
Your'e also forgetting the millions of people who bought homes, cars, and mortgages, even though they could not afford it.

This whole crises is the result of people, corporations, and governments all spending beyond their means and racking up loads of debt.

All in a misguided belief that the bubble will never pop.
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  #48  
Old 07 May 12, 10:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathanrex1 View Post
Your'e also forgetting the millions of people who bought homes, cars, and mortgages, even though they could not afford it.

This whole crises is the result of people, corporations, and governments all spending beyond their means and racking up loads of debt.

All in a misguided belief that the bubble will never pop.
You're right of course - we're all complicit to a degree.
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  #49  
Old 07 May 12, 11:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimi View Post
Yeah and OF COURSE Merkel is against growth. Yes, surely. I heard her say "We want to prevent growth because we hate it! To the KZ with growth!"
Who's talking about Merkel? That one was about Sarko the Mental Midget.
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  #50  
Old 07 May 12, 11:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathanrex1 View Post
Your'e also forgetting the millions of people who bought homes, cars, and mortgages, even though they could not afford it.

This whole crises is the result of people, corporations, and governments all spending beyond their means and racking up loads of debt.

All in a misguided belief that the bubble will never pop.

In general to buy a car or a house people are forced to make a loan in the bank. Then they spent the years to come to pay it. States on the other side are not so quick to pay their debts.
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  #51  
Old 07 May 12, 12:05
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Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
Oh no - don't get me wrong, I'm not offering a solution, I'm disputing your analysis.

That is I do not agree with you're apparent assessment that everthing would have been ok had the greeks just worked a little harder.

You (or so it seems at least) claim to paying greek pensioners, while I claim you're subsidizing german (or even belgian) banks.
Competetiveness is not about working harder necessarily. We've got our own painful labor market reform behind us during witch there was 0.00000 help from "europe".

Greece has a primary deficit of 2.4% and it had 10% two years ago. That means that if greece had no debts at all, it would still have to have a deficit of 2.4% or 10% respectively just to keep itself afloat. Again, before their interst payments even come into play.

Where do you think they get that money from, now that they are not on the open market any more? Could it perhaps... *gasp* be other european countries?? No.... it must be the tooth fairy.

I can only repeat myself from before... if you failed to pay attention to what the greek government itself said, then thats not my problem. Greece is beeing kept afloat with other peoples money. There is nothing - nothing - else that keeps it afloat.
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  #52  
Old 07 May 12, 12:16
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Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
Who's talking about Merkel? That one was about Sarko the Mental Midget.
Sarko wasnt so different from Hollande in the beginning, I dont think you can pin that on him (unless talking to somebody who just hates him, which I can sympathise with).

He, like hollande, wanted the printing presses to turn on indefinately. He, like hollande, wanted eurobonds so that everything returns to as it was before (german credit rating guarantees for everybody else but germans are not allowed to influence how others use that supposedly "common" money. Read guaranteed by german taxpayers, spend by foreign governments), he also brought into play the same idea about the growth programs etc. pp.

Of course, in germany we also are very much for growth programs. The tricky thing is the laguange barrier. When a french politician says "growth program" he means big government spending ranging from defence over infrastructure to just hireing people into the civil service for the laugh of it.

When Merkel and the german government talk about growth programs, they mean labor market reforms, private investment support, shortening the time required to found a new buisness and so on.

So the Hollande from now is not that far away from the sarkozy of a few years back. France however is in a more precarious situation than back then.

Quote:
"We will analyse the policy choices of France's president elect and the new government, taking into account the outcome of the parliamentary elections in June," the [rating] agency said.

"The chances are that the next move is going to be down. The chances are it's going to be slightly earlier than it would have been otherwise, but the agencies themselves will have a measured response," said Georg Grodski, head of credit research at Legal and General.

"There is still hope that Mr Hollande will tone down some of his rhetoric and accept that you can't fix an economic problem by living on other people's money."
merkozy wasnt born the minute that the crisis began, in fact Merkel and Sarkozy never liked one another and from the personality type, hollande is much closer to Merkel than sarkozy was. The question is to what degree he knows that his promises where lies, or if thats too harsh for you: The question is how fast he will say "We didnt know that the former government left THIS kind of a mess, or we wouldnt have promised A, B, C, D"

Altough he very well knew the state frances economy (sans the big state-backed corporations) is.

7%+ unemplyoment wasnt fun for germany, belive me. But nobody came up with the idea that the rest of europe owes us a living. Hollande better grows up, and fast.
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  #53  
Old 07 May 12, 13:28
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I noticed on the tv coverage of last nights celebrations a lot of Palestinian flags being waved. Are Hollande and the French socialists particularly supportive of Palestine/opposed to Israel?
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  #54  
Old 07 May 12, 18:44
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Originally Posted by Surrey View Post
I noticed on the tv coverage of last nights celebrations a lot of Palestinian flags being waved. Are Hollande and the French socialists particularly supportive of Palestine/opposed to Israel?
It's no secret that the left are in bed with the Islamofascists.
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  #55  
Old 07 May 12, 18:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philiplaos View Post
The new French President has declared "an end to austerity", heavier taxes on the wealthy and the adoption of pro-growth strategies.. Greece now looks set to go down the same path. Up to now, European countries have followed the doctrine of austerity, compared to the US which has followed the doctrine of stimulus and growth. Whereas the US is growing (albeit at a very slow rate), so far, it hasn't worked out at all well in Europe and the UK has even gone back into recession.

These are two completely opposing strategies.

Which one will be successful?

How the Hell would I know?


Philip
That's oxymoronic. Taxing the rich only weakens the economy by scaring away capital and reducing tax revenues. But why I am surprised that a Socialist doesn't know anything about economics? Hell, even some of the moderate left in France had the sense to vote for Sarkozy, they knew that the Socialists would destroy the economy even more than it already is.
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  #56  
Old 07 May 12, 18:54
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Originally Posted by Destroyer25 View Post
It's no secret that the left are in bed with the Islamofascists.
How one head can contain so many BS ?
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  #57  
Old 07 May 12, 19:03
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Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
How one head can contain so many BS ?
At least for germany I can say that the left is much more pro-palestine/arabs and much more anti-israel/jews than the right. extreme left and right are both against the jews.

I guess it comes as no surprise that Günter Grass ("What has to be said") is left. Well, he used to be SS...

Anyways, the left in germany is of the opinion that since the nazis where right wing, they dont have to blame themselves for anything. Because no nazi ever joined the lef... oh blast, get out of here Günter...

As for the flags, I read an article in the FAZ where the french journalist - pretty much en passant - mentioned that he saw only few tricolores and a lot of algerian, tunesian, egyptian flags as well as some red banners with star. Apperently this is to celebrate the diversity of modern france in response to the rather FN friendly course that Sarkozy had in the election campaign.
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Old 07 May 12, 19:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimi View Post
At least for germany I can say that the left is much more pro-palestine/arabs and much more anti-israel/jews than the right. extreme left and right are both against the jews.

I guess it comes as no surprise that Günter Grass ("What has to be said") is left. Well, he used to be SS...

Anyways, the left in germany is of the opinion that since the nazis where right wing, they dont have to blame themselves for anything. Because no nazi ever joined the lef... oh blast, get out of here Günter...

As for the flags, I read an article in the FAZ where the french journalist - pretty much en passant - mentioned that he saw only few tricolores and a lot of algerian, tunesian, egyptian flags as well as some red banners with star. Apperently this is to celebrate the diversity of modern france in response to the rather FN friendly course that Sarkozy had in the election campaign.
There is a difference between more support Palestinians than Israel and support the Islamist terrorists. It's obvious that Islamists/Arabs will not the right with their nationalism.
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Old 07 May 12, 20:08
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Originally Posted by Emtos View Post
There is a difference between more support Palestinians than Israel and support the Islamist terrorists.
Thats true. The german left terrorists (RAF for instance) though where very buddy-buddy with the islamist terrorists.

I really liked how the greek communist party wants to exit euro and EU to pursue more cooperation with egypits military government, the tunis republic and ... whatever comes out of libya. Last thing I heard was the usual Sharia law enacting.
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Old 07 May 12, 21:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimi View Post
At least for germany I can say that the left is much more pro-palestine/arabs and much more anti-israel/jews than the right. extreme left and right are both against the jews.

I guess it comes as no surprise that Günter Grass ("What has to be said") is left. Well, he used to be SS...

Anyways, the left in germany is of the opinion that since the nazis where right wing, they dont have to blame themselves for anything. Because no nazi ever joined the lef... oh blast, get out of here Günter...

As for the flags, I read an article in the FAZ where the french journalist - pretty much en passant - mentioned that he saw only few tricolores and a lot of algerian, tunesian, egyptian flags as well as some red banners with star. Apperently this is to celebrate the diversity of modern france in response to the rather FN friendly course that Sarkozy had in the election campaign.
The assertion that Nazism and Fascism are right wing is completely fallacious. I've already largely refuted that. Not that I'm saying you're asserting that.

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Thats true. The german left terrorists (RAF for instance) though where very buddy-buddy with the islamist terrorists.
Yep. There are mountains of evidence of cooperation between the far left and Islamofascists. Today the left in general is highly critical of Israel and extremely defensive of the Palestinians, Islam, and Islamic terrorists.

Walk into a Poli Sci 101 class at practically any university in the world, say that the Taliban are vile, evil creatures that need to be squashed and every brainwashed lefty in the room will defend them.
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