HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Military/History Related Hobbies > Research, Reference and Historical Study > Science

Notices and Announcements

Science Discussions about hard science.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 09 Sep 17, 19:37
Pirate-Drakk's Avatar
Pirate-Drakk Pirate-Drakk is offline
Major General
Pirate
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive Summer Campaign 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: S. Krause
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: East Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 2,681
Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300]
Solar Astrophysicist adds a few climate comments

Brilliant account of "the other side of climate science story" in layman terms. Lot's of graphs and great quotes. He also gets into the politics of AGW. He also shows how "they" lie with statistics to support a flawed argument. Take the time to "pause" the video at various points so you can study the information in the presentation slides. Even I learned a few things!



Professor Willie Soon, a Solar Astrophysicist, conducts a class on the Climate Change Hoax at Camp Constitution's 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YMttEhtgpk

If you watch it to the end, you will find a very common theme in the actual cause of climate change (not CO2): Water and the Sun.


Funny how so many physicists come to exactly the same conclusions. Maybe because physicist is based on actual science, unlike "climatology". "-ologies" (like biology) are what is commonly called "soft science" because it is mostly bug collecting. There are things like biophysics and geophysics but NO "climatephysics". Coincidence?


__________________
Battles are dangerous affairs... Wang Hsi
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09 Sep 17, 20:33
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,656
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Let's revisit this in say 20 years. I'm betting the hole in the ozone will still be there, will still be about the same size, and there will still be people saying we just need to wait longer because the predictions were wrong but the science was right...

It's the same with Gorebal Warming. The IPCC for example has made predictions about the effects of climate change and they've been nearly 100% wrong. Even a good psychic could get better odds than that on predictions...

When outcomes match predictions at greater than 50% (random chance) maybe I'll start paying attention. But the predictions and modelling to date haven't come close to what actually has been the climate.
Did you watch both links in the OP's anti AGW stance? The first scientist stated that after half a day he knew that the evidence was wrong? I've spent longer in trying to rationalize one of The Doc's posts with his input, before I knew who his employer was. The second scientist stated AGW was true, but the scientific model was not yet 100% ? A great stance in my opinion.

Why is it that we have to apparently choose between a fascist (big business stance eg tabacco, oil) or a commie (Al Gore) stance? Are we not allowed a middle democratic republican position? I do not believe I have to choose in a polarized bigot opinion. I choose science .
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09 Sep 17, 22:07
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,888
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Did you watch both links in the OP's anti AGW stance? The first scientist stated that after half a day he knew that the evidence was wrong? I've spent longer in trying to rationalize one of The Doc's posts with his input, before I knew who his employer was. The second scientist stated AGW was true, but the scientific model was not yet 100% ? A great stance in my opinion.

Why is it that we have to apparently choose between a fascist (big business stance eg tabacco, oil) or a commie (Al Gore) stance? Are we not allowed a middle democratic republican position? I do not believe I have to choose in a polarized bigot opinion. I choose science .
I do too. Climate change happens, mostly because of stuff in nature. Man caused change is small by comparison. As to causes... There are lots of these, not just CO2 as the Gorebal Warming crowd wants you to buy into. It seems to me that the more expensive and government-centric the solution to a climate change problem is, the more those most invested in Gorebal Warming want it.

Good science happens when the results match the actual outcome / data, or when it doesn't those involved willingly admit their idea(s) were a failure and are willing to learn from that.
What we see with the Gorebal Warming crowd is the modelling doesn't match actual results or data, so what they do is manipulate the data to fit their modelling. Even then it's a poor fit. They also ignore alternate models and potential causes.

But, the big one that makes me question their motives is their "STFU! There's a near 100% consensus we're right so the discussion is over." When I see that with what is clearly not settled science, I pretty much figure they're mad you just won't buy that the Earth really is flat and the center of the universe.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10 Sep 17, 10:14
Poor Old Spike's Avatar
Poor Old Spike Poor Old Spike is offline
Colonel
UK
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: England
Posts: 1,576
Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
..Thus, anthropogenic climate change is a poorly understood issue in my view and given the sloppy results of past world climate / atmosphere efforts by scientists I'm not willing to wreck the world's economy or standard of living on their claims.
1- Thanks, but it's an undisputed fact that global temperatures are rising, but what seems to be in dispute is what's causing it.
Humans are pouring factory, car, vehicle and airliner emissions into the atmosphere so might I suggest we're to blame?

2- If we cleaned up our act, how exactly would it wreck the world's economy or standard of living?



Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12 Sep 17, 20:07
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,656
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirate-Drakk View Post
Brilliant account of "the other side of climate science story" in layman terms. Lot's of graphs and great quotes. He also gets into the politics of AGW. He also shows how "they" lie with statistics to support a flawed argument. Take the time to "pause" the video at various points so you can study the information in the presentation slides. Even I learned a few things!



Professor Willie Soon, a Solar Astrophysicist, conducts a class on the Climate Change Hoax at Camp Constitution's 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YMttEhtgpk

If you watch it to the end, you will find a very common theme in the actual cause of climate change (not CO2): Water and the Sun.


Funny how so many physicists come to exactly the same conclusions. Maybe because physicist is based on actual science, unlike "climatology". "-ologies" (like biology) are what is commonly called "soft science" because it is mostly bug collecting. There are things like biophysics and geophysics but NO "climatephysics". Coincidence?


The Smithsonian Institute does not support his claims. The Smithsonian Institute is the worlds largest museum, education and research complex in the world. Willie Soon is a fake.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Soon

However, it is nice to be funded over $1 million for your 'beliefs'.
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #21  
Old 12 Sep 17, 23:13
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,888
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
1- Thanks, but it's an undisputed fact that global temperatures are rising, but what seems to be in dispute is what's causing it.
Humans are pouring factory, car, vehicle and airliner emissions into the atmosphere so might I suggest we're to blame?
You can, but until there's some really valid and consistent proof of it, I'm not buying the mantra of the primarily Progressive side of things saying its all humanity's fault.

Quote:
2- If we cleaned up our act, how exactly would it wreck the world's economy or standard of living?
I don't have a problem with that assuming the solutions are reasonable, economically sound, and can be demonstrated to work.

Solutions that are failures: Solar. Wind. Battery powered cars. Public transit.

Solutions that would work: Nuclear power. Hydrogen powered cars. Self driving smart transportation systems that are privately owned.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 15 Sep 17, 05:19
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,656
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
You can, but until there's some really valid and consistent proof of it, I'm not buying the mantra of the primarily Progressive side of things saying its all humanity's fault.



I don't have a problem with that assuming the solutions are reasonable, economically sound, and can be demonstrated to work.

Solutions that are failures: Solar. Wind. Battery powered cars. Public transit.

Solutions that would work: Nuclear power. Hydrogen powered cars. Self driving smart transportation systems that are privately owned.
Solar and wind are not failures. Nor is public transport.

And check out who actually started the topic of climate change - it was Margaret Thatcher supported by Ronald Reagan, hardly progressives. However, the topic has since been hijacked by Al Gore.
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 15 Sep 17, 09:27
BELGRAVE's Avatar
BELGRAVE BELGRAVE is offline
General of the Forums
Australia
5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: PHILIP WHITEHOUSE
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: MELBOURNE
Posts: 6,017
BELGRAVE is simply cracking [600]
BELGRAVE is simply cracking [600] BELGRAVE is simply cracking [600] BELGRAVE is simply cracking [600] BELGRAVE is simply cracking [600] BELGRAVE is simply cracking [600] BELGRAVE is simply cracking [600] BELGRAVE is simply cracking [600] BELGRAVE is simply cracking [600] BELGRAVE is simply cracking [600] BELGRAVE is simply cracking [600] BELGRAVE is simply cracking [600] BELGRAVE is simply cracking [600]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Solar and wind are not failures. Nor is public transport.

And check out who actually started the topic of climate change - it was Margaret Thatcher supported by Ronald Reagan, hardly progressives. However, the topic has since been hijacked by Al Gore.
Yep. it sometimes seems strange to me that the Climate Change sceptics always seem ,politically ,to be on the Right, whereas you might be inclined to think that conservative thinkers would want to defend and conserve the climatic status quo and oppose any threat -real or potential-that might upset things.
__________________
"I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
Samuel Johnson.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 15 Sep 17, 10:11
Snowygerry's Avatar
Snowygerry Snowygerry is offline
General of the Forums
Belgium
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Gent
Posts: 11,396
Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] Snowygerry has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I do too. Climate change happens, mostly because of stuff in nature. Man caused change is small by comparison.
I suspect most would agree here.

Quote:
As to causes... There are lots of these,
No doubt - but do they matter ?

Rather than endlessly debating the cause, shouldn't we be dealing with the consequences ?
__________________
High The Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.
Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor - The Napoleonic Wars Campaign.

Captain Atticus Finch - ACW Rainbow Co.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 16 Sep 17, 16:47
Pirate-Drakk's Avatar
Pirate-Drakk Pirate-Drakk is offline
Major General
Pirate
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive Summer Campaign 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: S. Krause
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: East Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 2,681
Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
The Smithsonian Institute does not support his claims. The Smithsonian Institute is the worlds largest museum, education and research complex in the world. Willie Soon is a fake.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Soon

However, it is nice to be funded over $1 million for your 'beliefs'.
If Willy Soon is a fake then why does he say the exact same things as the other two physicists who are clearly not fake? Your logic doesn't work.


Science is about facts, not endorsements by institutions that make up history.

For example, the Smithsonian Contract with the Wright brothers declaring no other "First Flight" claims will ever be recognized.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/...in-flight.html

Science by endorsement is not science, it's fraud. The Smithsonian is guilty of other frauds regarding the first explorers and human occupation of N. America. (They destroyed countless artifacts among other things...)

If you can only apply political arguments to scientific issues, you are missing the point, and are a perfect example of a victim of propaganda.
__________________
Battles are dangerous affairs... Wang Hsi
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 19 Sep 17, 04:35
Nick the Noodle's Avatar
Nick the Noodle Nick the Noodle is offline
General of the Forums
Wales
Distinguished Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Westerns Campaign Greatest Spy Movies Campaign 
Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign 
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C SPQR Campaign Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign CWiE 1939-45 Campaign 
 
Real Name: Tin Pot Noodle
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Land of the Red Dragon
Posts: 17,656
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+] Nick the Noodle has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirate-Drakk View Post
If Willy Soon is a fake then why does he say the exact same things as the other two physicists who are clearly not fake? Your logic doesn't work.


Science is about facts, not endorsements by institutions that make up history.

For example, the Smithsonian Contract with the Wright brothers declaring no other "First Flight" claims will ever be recognized.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/...in-flight.html

Science by endorsement is not science, it's fraud. The Smithsonian is guilty of other frauds regarding the first explorers and human occupation of N. America. (They destroyed countless artifacts among other things...)

If you can only apply political arguments to scientific issues, you are missing the point, and are a perfect example of a victim of propaganda.
You really need to watch your links. They do not wholly support your position. For example, in his very first comment, Freeman Dyson states AGW is true. Further, he has studied the climate models, and states that some of it is spot on, but other elements need to be explained. This scientific approach is light years from your polarized political stance.
__________________
How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 20 Sep 17, 04:50
Poor Old Spike's Avatar
Poor Old Spike Poor Old Spike is offline
Colonel
UK
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: England
Posts: 1,576
Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100]
As a matter of interest are car emissions harmful in any way?
For example if they're contributing to global warming every car-loving motorist is going to yell- "No they're not!" aren't they?
I've never owned or wanted a car so I'm strictly neutral..
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 20 Sep 17, 13:02
T. A. Gardner's Avatar
T. A. Gardner T. A. Gardner is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
5 Year Service Ribbon Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Real Name: T. A. Gardner
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 34,888
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+] T. A. Gardner has achieved enlightenment [1200+]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
As a matter of interest are car emissions harmful in any way?
For example if they're contributing to global warming every car-loving motorist is going to yell- "No they're not!" aren't they?
I've never owned or wanted a car so I'm strictly neutral..
Sure, car emissions are harmful. That's not the relevant question on the table. The relevant question is:

How much pollution are you willing to accept to maintain or improve your current standard of living?

To those who say "We must eliminate all pollution," I reply You sir, or madam, are a moron.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 20 Sep 17, 17:44
G David Bock's Avatar
G David Bock G David Bock is offline
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C 
 
Real Name: G David Bock
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bellingham, Washington
Posts: 15,357
G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000] G David Bock has set a fine example for others to follow [1000]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
1- Thanks, but it's an undisputed fact that global temperatures are rising, but what seems to be in dispute is what's causing it.
Overall, only slightly and there is dispute about the accuracy of instruments and readings from over a half century ago, not to mention placement of those readings. Meanwhile, there appears to have been a slowing if not plateau of atmospheric warming between 1998 and 2013, excerpts;
....
" BETWEEN 1998 and 2013, the Earth’s surface temperature rose at a rate of 0.04°C a decade, far slower than the 0.18°C increase in the 1990s. Meanwhile, emissions of carbon dioxide (which would be expected to push temperatures up) rose uninterruptedly. This pause in warming has raised doubts in the public mind about climate change. A few sceptics say flatly that global warming has stopped. Others argue that scientists’ understanding of the climate is so flawed that their judgments about it cannot be accepted with any confidence. A convincing explanation of the pause therefore matters both to a proper understanding of the climate and to the credibility of climate science—and papers published over the past few weeks do their best to provide one. Indeed, they do almost too good a job. If all were correct, the pause would now be explained twice over.

This is the opposite of what happened at first. As evidence piled up that temperatures were not rising much, some scientists dismissed it as a blip. The temperature, they pointed out, had fallen for much longer periods twice in the past century or so, in 1880-1910 and again in 1945-75 (see chart), even though the general trend was up. Variability is part of the climate system and a 15-year hiatus, they suggested, was not worth getting excited about.
...
Still, attempts to explain away that stable average have not been convincing, partly because of the conflict between flat temperatures and rising CO2 emissions, and partly because observed temperatures are now falling outside the range climate models predict. The models embody the state of climate knowledge. If they are wrong, the knowledge is probably faulty, too. Hence attempts to explain the pause.

Chilling news

In September 2013 the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change did so in terms of fluctuating solar output, atmospheric pollution and volcanoes. All three, it thought, were unusually influential.

The sun’s power output fluctuates slightly over a cycle that lasts about 11 years. The current cycle seems to have gone on longer than normal and may have started from a lower base, so for the past decade less heat has been reaching Earth than usual. Pollution throws aerosols (particles such as soot, and suspended droplets of things like sulphuric acid) into the air, where they reflect sunlight back into space. The more there are, the greater their cooling effect—and pollution from Chinese coal-fired power plants, in particular, has been rising. Volcanoes do the same thing, so increased volcanic activity tends to reduce temperatures. "
...
https://www.economist.com/news/scien...ars-goes-being

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
Humans are pouring factory, car, vehicle and airliner emissions into the atmosphere so might I suggest we're to blame?
"Emissions" covers a broad spectrum of molecules and compounds, so one should be more precise here about which specific ones might be part of the "problem".

Main focus of the ACC/AGW supporters is the "blame" falls mostly upon Carbon Dioxide (CO2). At 400 PPM ((Parts Per Million), dry atmosphere, no allowance for the greater "greenhouse gas" of water vapor H2O ).

Problem here is that about 99+% of the biomass (weight of living things) of Earth is Flora/plants and they require CO2 to exist, and we "less than" 1% of Fauna/animals/humans need that Flora to exist. Minimum optimal level of CO2 for Flora/Plant life is about 300ppm, so the concern is only over that "extra" 100ppm.

At 400ppm, the ratio of CO2 to everything else (dry) is about 1/2500 so the claim is the slight "heat retention" of the CO2 is driving up the heat of the other 2,499 parts of the (dry) atmosphere. This defies logic and common sense, just for a starter. Meanwhile, I'm still waiting to see if anyone has replicated this effect in the laboratory, which so far hasn't happened (IIRC).

If we concede that we have to accept at least the 300ppm to keep 99+% of Life living (and they keep we <1% alive), then the ratio at issue goes up to one part out of 10,000. An even more absurd factor that defies basic science for case of "hair twitching on the tail wagging the dog".

The mantra of the pro-ACC/AGW crowd is the urgent need to "de-carbonize" emmissions, yet no clear case has been established that CO2 is the main driver or that reduction on emissions of CO2 will be a cure for "climate change". Meanwhile the costs of reducing CO2 emissions would greatly increase the costs of energy and products we need to sustain our level of economy and living standards, with no real assurance that it would aid the environment/hydrosphere/biosphere ~ if anything, it likely could be a more negative impact.

Other emissions are a more greater concern. One major one addressed in many parts of the world have been SO2, Sulfur Dioxide, which produces "acid rain". Many solutions for this require chemical treatment and the bi-product of Flue Gas DeSulfurization (FGD) is often more CO2 and H2O, i.e two major "greenhouse gases".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
2- If we cleaned up our act, how exactly would it wreck the world's economy or standard of living?
(edit pics for brevity)
We have been "cleaning up our act", in most of the developed world anyway, but how should we treat others such as China or India which aren't or Brazil which is cutting down rainforest which use that "extra" CO2? Do make war on them if they don't do better?

How much more are you willing to pay for electricity and other energy if we go to the extremes advocated?

Are you volunteering to be one to go in order to reduce world population and corresponding increased demand for energy and products?

Why must we focus upon reducing CO2 emissions when the more cost and environmentally effective path would be to increase Flora, CO2 "eaters"?

One major bottomline here is that geological records show that "climate" is not stagnant, is not a stable to be set like your in-home thermostat. Climate is always in flux and either cooling towards an ice-age(glaciation) or warming away from an ice-age. Which path would you rather see our planet on?
__________________
Whiskey for my men, and beer for my horses.
TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Bock's First Law of History: The Past shapes the Present, which forms the Future. *
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 20 Sep 17, 23:45
Pirate-Drakk's Avatar
Pirate-Drakk Pirate-Drakk is offline
Major General
Pirate
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon March Offensive Summer Campaign 
Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
 
Real Name: S. Krause
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: East Lansing, Michigan
Posts: 2,681
Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300] Pirate-Drakk is on a distinguished road [300]
Quote:
Originally Posted by G David Bock View Post
Main focus of the ACC/AGW supporters is the "blame" falls mostly upon Carbon Dioxide (CO2). At 400 PPM ((Parts Per Million), dry atmosphere, no allowance for the greater "greenhouse gas" of water vapor H2O ).
Lot's of good stuff in the Bock's post but this is the kicker.


The AGW crowd goes after CO2 but you can't measure the effects of CO2 in the noise of WATER, because water dominates our climate in every way!


And by the way, there is NO experiments that demonstrate CO2 is having a major effect on our climate. Not so easy to do that ...
__________________
Battles are dangerous affairs... Wang Hsi

Last edited by Pirate-Drakk; 20 Sep 17 at 23:56..
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:44.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.