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World War II Discuss WW2. .

View Poll Results: What was the best medium bomber?
Heinkel He 111 1 1.20%
Junkers Ju 88 12 14.46%
Dornier Do 217 0 0%
Martin B-26 6 7.23%
North American B-25 17 20.48%
Douglas A-26 7 8.43%
Ilyushin Il-4 2 2.41%
Tupolev Tu-2 1 1.20%
Vickers Wellington 1 1.20%
de Havilland Mosquito 32 38.55%
CANT Z.1007 0 0%
Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 0 0%
Mitsubishi G4M 0 0%
Other 4 4.82%
Voters: 83. You may not vote on this poll

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  #91  
Old 25 Jan 13, 17:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
Which means it was better in the medium bomber roll, excellent in the fighter-bomber role, the night-fighter role, photo-reconnaissance roll, anti-ship strike roll, intruder roll.....

Perhaps we should say that the Mosquito wasn't really a Night-Fighter because it was a bomber/photo-reconnaissance aircraft.


Paul
Does it really matter as the main question was about bombers.
As for versatility:
The number of Ju 88 built other than as a bomber approximated the total
British wartime Mosquito production.
Let's be honest the Ju 88 was just as versatile as the Mosquito.
Yes, the Mosquito was a better airframe, no gainsaying that.

Ed.
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  #92  
Old 25 Jan 13, 18:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutched View Post
Does it really matter as the main question was about bombers.
As for versatility:
The number of Ju 88 built other than as a bomber approximated the total
British wartime Mosquito production.
Let's be honest the Ju 88 was just as versatile as the Mosquito.
Yes, the Mosquito was a better airframe, no gainsaying that.

Ed.
Variants and rolls of the JU88 were extensive but I don't care a less about the JU88. my last was a reply to flash on his conclusions, not on that of your beloved JU 88/188/388 'or even two fat ladies, 88'

Paul
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  #93  
Old 25 Jan 13, 20:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
Variants and rolls of the JU88 were extensive but I don't care a less about the JU88. my last was a reply to flash on his conclusions, not on that of your beloved JU 88/188/388 'or even two fat ladies, 88'

Paul
I feel truly honored, to your expressing devotion to the de Havilland product. The Ju 88, beloved, that is taking it a bit too far. Less restrictive
in my interests for sure.

Ed.
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  #94  
Old 25 Jan 13, 21:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutched View Post
I feel truly honored, to your expressing devotion to the de Havilland product. The Ju 88, beloved, that is taking it a bit too far. Less restrictive
in my interests for sure.

Ed.
I will say that there is at least one Ju 88 the Mosquito couldn't match simply because of design: The Ju 88H. This particular model had a stretched fuselage with additional fuel tanks for greater range.... Much greater range. It was intended for maritime patrol and only a few were built but it is one model you won't find the Mossie matching.
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  #95  
Old 25 Jan 13, 21:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broderickwells View Post
I still bemoan the lack of the best Soviet medium bomber of WW2, the Pe-2, from the list. As a fighter/recce aircraft, it was known as the Pe-3.

All three serious contenders, DH Mosquito, Ju 88 and Pe-2, fulfilled a number of roles and were produced in large numbers. The Mosquito gets a lot of kudos for a few glory shots, while the other two did a whole lot more bread and butter work. I'm voting for brot und масло
No PZL Zubr??
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  #96  
Old 25 Jan 13, 22:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I will say that there is at least one Ju 88 the Mosquito couldn't match simply because of design: The Ju 88H. This particular model had a stretched fuselage with additional fuel tanks for greater range.... Much greater range. It was intended for maritime patrol and only a few were built but it is one model you won't find the Mossie matching.
At first sight no, the Ju 88 H-1 had a range of 1,000 miles. The H-1 version was the only one to have been built iirc through conversion of D-4 airframes.
Only a total of 9 went into service and the number includes the 2 prototypes. From what I have been led to believe, they were quite successful for the small number involved.

Ed.
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Last edited by dutched; 26 Jan 13 at 10:07..
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  #97  
Old 26 Jan 13, 05:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joea View Post
I'm amazed that we still don't have a proper, universally agreed (even if just in this forum) definition as to what constitutes a "medium" bomber!

Is it number of engines?

Bomb payload?

Weight of the aircraft?

Role?

A messy combination of all of the above?

One thing I would suggest is aircraft like the Mossie (a sentimental fave of mine), the Ju-88 or the B-25 (or even the A-20) is the mutiple uses they were put to render comparison difficult. The poll meant to compare them as medium bombers yet the partisans of each aircraft mention their uses as night-fighters, pathfinders, flying artillery (gotta love the Mossies' 50mm and the Mitchell's 75(!!!) mm cannons) etc. so should we ignore those roles and stick to the bomber role?

Even discussing bombing, we talking level bombing? Thus excluding low-level attacks, dive bombing or skip bombing?

The above are some reasons I have not voted on the poll.
That is a major problem with any of these "best of" polls. There is no consensus on what is or what isn't a "medium bomber" is or any consistent criteria that may be applied. (Wait until we get to a "medium tank"!) To my mind, a medium bomber is an aircraft that drops bombs in formation, level bombers, from moderate altitude at a moderate i.e. tactical or interdictiive range behind the front, depending on whose definitions are used. This is typically a twin-engined monoplane, usually with dorsal, ventral and rear gun positions, carries a conventional payload of two tons over ranges of 200 miles or less behind the front line. More than that would fall into the class of a "heavy" or "strategic" bomber.

That said, I can't consider the Mosquito as a medium bomber. It was an exceptional aircraft, there can be no doubt, but it was never operated the same way other RAF aircraft were, types like the Boston and Mitchell, which were definitely "mediium bombers" in the classical definition. The Mosquito filled many roles: coastal strike, precision bomber, pathfinder, fighter-bomber, interdiction, reconnaissance, fast transport, etc. but as far as I know, it never dropped bombs in formation, as a level bomber in the same way as a He-111 or B-26. Then there is the Blenheim, which was a decent enough aircraft for the time. It was a light bomber, by the common definition. The Blenheim evolved into the Beaufighter, which was also a potent aircraft that did many of the jobs the Mosquito later filled when production allowed. It is hard to know where the Mosquito fits, but I can't consider it a medium bomber.That is just my opinion, of course, offered freely for all that it is worth.

Somehow the Wellington gets lost in this too. It was a medium bomber, was it not? It flew as a night bomber, with the heavies, but it was not a heavy bomber. It did a pretty good job too, flying at the limit of its range to reach the Ruhr?

There are other considerations that are ignored. I will pick on the Il-4 again because it is a good example, but the He-111 and Betty have similar histories. First flight was 1936, redesigned in 1939, produced until 1944, abundant over the Eastern Front throughout the war. There was nothing glamorous about it, but it was an efficient design that did the job very well. the Tupolev Tu-2 and Douglas A-26 were late war designs that benefited from a new design cycle after years of wartime experience. It is hard to compare aircraft of that generation to those of the pre-1939 generation. There is a marked difference in available horsepower, firepower and more efficient design.

Anyway, we all have our favourites. I like them all. The Ju-88 was an exceptional aircraft, very significant in terms of German aircraft manufacturing and design. The B-25 was another outstanding aircraft when it appeared and served in all theatres with any number of air forces. Despite the legend, the He-111 was the main aircraft flown by the Kampfflieger. It was another excellent aircraft in its day. The Betty is another very good design, although all we ever hear about them was that they were easy to set afire.

Maybe the best medium bomber was the SAAB B.18. None of them were ever shot down.

Regards
Scott Fraser
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Last edited by Scott Fraser; 26 Jan 13 at 06:18..
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  #98  
Old 26 Jan 13, 06:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Fraser View Post
Maybe the best medium bomber was the SAAB B.18. None of them were ever shot down.
Given all its combat missions, that is surprising .
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  #99  
Old 26 Jan 13, 15:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutched View Post
At first sight no, the Ju 88 H-1 had a range of 1,000 miles. The H-1 version was the only one to have been built iirc through conversion of D-4 airframes.
Only a total of 9 went into service and the number includes the 2 prototypes. From what I have been led to believe, they were quite successful for the small number involved.

Ed.
My point wasn't the range. It was the inherent ability to stretch the design. The Ju 488 is essentially a Ju 188 that had new sections stitched into the wings turning what was a 2 engine bomber into a 4 engined one. Stretching the fuselage was also possible.
The Ju 88, most likely not intentionally, became one of the first aircraft to have this sort of stretching of capability take place on it. That is a unique quality to this aircraft for the period.
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  #100  
Old 26 Jan 13, 16:23
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What about Ju 188?

What about man hours and price for Mossie and Ju 88?

I voted for Mossie but Ju 88 should be second.
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Old 27 Jan 13, 08:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Fraser View Post
That is a major problem with any of these "best of" polls. There is no consensus on what is or what isn't a "medium bomber" is or any consistent criteria that may be applied. (Wait until we get to a "medium tank"!) To my mind, a medium bomber is an aircraft that drops bombs in formation, level bombers, from moderate altitude at a moderate i.e. tactical or interdictiive range behind the front, depending on whose definitions are used. This is typically a twin-engined monoplane, usually with dorsal, ventral and rear gun positions, carries a conventional payload of two tons over ranges of 200 miles or less behind the front line. More than that would fall into the class of a "heavy" or "strategic" bomber.

That said, I can't consider the Mosquito as a medium bomber. It was an exceptional aircraft, there can be no doubt, but it was never operated the same way other RAF aircraft were, types like the Boston and Mitchell, which were definitely "mediium bombers" in the classical definition. The Mosquito filled many roles: coastal strike, precision bomber, pathfinder, fighter-bomber, interdiction, reconnaissance, fast transport, etc. but as far as I know, it never dropped bombs in formation, as a level bomber in the same way as a He-111 or B-26. Then there is the Blenheim, which was a decent enough aircraft for the time. It was a light bomber, by the common definition. The Blenheim evolved into the Beaufighter, which was also a potent aircraft that did many of the jobs the Mosquito later filled when production allowed. It is hard to know where the Mosquito fits, but I can't consider it a medium bomber.That is just my opinion, of course, offered freely for all that it is worth.

Somehow the Wellington gets lost in this too. It was a medium bomber, was it not? It flew as a night bomber, with the heavies, but it was not a heavy bomber. It did a pretty good job too, flying at the limit of its range to reach the Ruhr?

There are other considerations that are ignored. I will pick on the Il-4 again because it is a good example, but the He-111 and Betty have similar histories. First flight was 1936, redesigned in 1939, produced until 1944, abundant over the Eastern Front throughout the war. There was nothing glamorous about it, but it was an efficient design that did the job very well. the Tupolev Tu-2 and Douglas A-26 were late war designs that benefited from a new design cycle after years of wartime experience. It is hard to compare aircraft of that generation to those of the pre-1939 generation. There is a marked difference in available horsepower, firepower and more efficient design.

Anyway, we all have our favourites. I like them all. The Ju-88 was an exceptional aircraft, very significant in terms of German aircraft manufacturing and design. The B-25 was another outstanding aircraft when it appeared and served in all theatres with any number of air forces. Despite the legend, the He-111 was the main aircraft flown by the Kampfflieger. It was another excellent aircraft in its day. The Betty is another very good design, although all we ever hear about them was that they were easy to set afire.

Maybe the best medium bomber was the SAAB B.18. None of them were ever shot down.

Regards
Scott Fraser
All this 'dropping bombs in formation' was used in daylight, at night it was in a stream. Not only that, dropping bombs in formation is a tactical thing; any bomber could do that! Even If there was a defined 'Medium bomber' type, The Mosquito broke the rules and the definition would have to be rewritten....Nothing's set in stone, anyway, if it was, the Mosquito shattered it. As for armament, that again has nothing to do with defining a bomber of any type, which is of course easily defined as an aircraft designed to drop bombs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hansika View Post
What about Ju 188?

I voted for Mossie but Ju 88 should be second.
I agree!

Paul
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  #102  
Old 29 Jan 13, 19:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
Given all its combat missions, that is surprising .
Had the highest combat survival rate of any POLIsh bomber in 1939

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  #103  
Old 30 Jan 13, 09:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marktwain View Post
Had the highest combat survival rate of any POLIsh bomber in 1939

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LWS-6_%C5%BBubr
So, it only got shot down most of the time instead of all of the time hum?...
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Old 05 Feb 13, 16:20
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My feelings on this subject are split in different ways the De havilland Mosquito is in the view of some one of the best medium bombers in both the the European and Far Eastern Theaters in WWII as well as doing an outstanding job as a fighter-bomber alongside the the USAAFs P-47s.Also the Mosquito is famous for the raid on Amions prison in Febuary of 1944 just 5 months before D-Day and this raid was the basis for the plot in the film "Mosquito Squadron" released in 1969.I also am a huge fan of the B-25 Mitchell bomber witch is best remembered for delivering the first strike at Japan in April/May of 1942 as part of tthe Doolittle raiding force.Also the Mitchell put a bigger "hurt" on Japan when the Mitchell started to carry out anti shipping strikes on japanese merchant ships in the battles for the Solomons and New Guinea in 1942.Also another bomber I'd like to touch face is the Martin B-26.The Murauder had a very good career in theETO and MTO(were it also served alongside the B-25 Mitchell) however the Murauder and Mitchell were both apart of a very questionablre bombing operation in Italy that has been a shadow over the Murauder and the losses of planes and crew in training early in the war.The raid I'm referring too is the bombing of Monte Casino.Instead of removing the German Paratroops the raid only created more defensive positions for the germans to fight from only making the fight fot the abbey and the town more costly.All the planes I've mentioned are (what i feeel in my opion) the best medium bombers in WWII.
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Old 06 Feb 13, 09:39
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A.Leroux A.Leroux is offline
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Real Name: Avery Stuebner
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A.Leroux is on the path to success [1-99]
Gotta stick with the B-25.
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