The inevitable; the unimaginable

[hellboy30]

Originally Posted by Localyokel

To remind that the north wasn't waging war to make men free especially in the early stages.

Some were, others weren't. Lincoln kept a hands off policy for the first year of the war because he & his cabinet thought they were fighting the Southern elites-that most Unionists would assert themselves & convince the firebrands to quit. There was some legislation & enactments in the field prior to the EP. The way you make it sound is that the war started, then suddenly a year & a half later the EP just materializes out of the blue because the Union is being beaten. That was simply not true.

[B7B Southern]

Originally Posted by Unionblue

B7B Southern,

I have done a rather extensive (although in no way complete) search on the internet for "black pioneers," "African-American engineer troops," "Captain Claiborne R. Mason," and "The Battle of Port Republic."

The only place I see "African-American engineer troops" are the two battlefield markers you first gave in your previous post.

All the other sites that I visited with the above topics and titles mention nothing about "black pioneers" or "African-American engineer troops." Various other sites only mention "CS engineers" or "CS pioneers" and make no mention of blacks participating in building the "wagon bridge" mentioned in the markers nor do any of the after-action reports by General Jackson or General Winder mention the race or color of the men who built the bridge mentioned.

Report of Lt. Gen. Thomas J. Jackson of the Battle of Port Republic.

http://stonewall.hut.ru/reports/jackson_portrep.htm

I did find some information on Captain Claiborne R. Mason. It comes from the following website:

http://www.roanetnhistory.org/bookre...nnals&pgid=518

Part of the above states:

"...When the war arose in 1861, he raised a company for the Fifty-second regiment, but his services were more needed otherwise. He was first commissioned as quartermaster, with the rank of Captain. Soon, however, General T. J. Jackson attached him to his person and employed him in constructing roads and bridges, obtaining for him the commission of Lieutenant-Colonel of engineers. An anecdote is related to show his energy and skill: One evening General Jackson notified him to hold himself in readiness to construct a bridge over a river they were at. The regular engineers sat up all night, drawing the plan, and in the morning Mason was sent for to receive instructions. He presented himself at headquarters, with the announcement that the bridge was up! His death occurred in January, 1885, when he was about eighty-two years of age..."

No mention of "black pioneers," no mention of "African-American engineer troops" to be found in the telling of that remarkable story.

From Jackson's and Winder's reports, from NPS sites on the battle, even the Sons of the South website account of the battle mentions the bridge, but no mention of anything else but "CS pioneers" or "CS engineers."

Again, I am not claiming to have done an exhaustive search on the web, but I am of the view that two signs by a historical society is not conclusive evidence of "African-American engineer troops."

I wonder where that society got its information to claim such?

Do you have any other source for this claim?

Unionblue

Unionblue, it seems after a little digging, that information is in family
letters. I will continue along that line when chances are available
to me. I too have read the same ones you have read and saw nothing.
Y'all have my curiosity up now!!

[Localyokel]

Originally Posted by hellboy30

Some were, others weren't. Lincoln kept a hands off policy for the first year of the war because he & his cabinet thought they were fighting the Southern elites-that most Unionists would assert themselves & convince the firebrands to quit. There was some legislation & enactments in the field prior to the EP. The way you make it sound is that the war started, then suddenly a year & a half later the EP just materializes out of the blue because the Union is being beaten. That was simply not true.

Allow me to clarify. I was contending that Lincoln's primary intention of the EP was to lend legitamacy to the Northern cause. I corrected the statement that the north was losing, replacing that assertion with one that Lincoln was losing support for the war. The north was not mustering for war to free the slaves as is often contended with the statement "The civil war was about slavery". For the North (in the begining) it was not about slavery on the main. It was about forcing the south to stay in the union.

[hellboy30]

Originally Posted by Localyokel

Allow me to clarify. I was contending that Lincoln's primary intention of the EP was to lend legitamacy to the Northern cause. I corrected the statement that the north was losing, replacing that assertion with one that Lincoln was losing support for the war. The north was not mustering for war to free the slaves as is often contended with the statement "The civil war was about slavery". For the North (in the begining) it was not about slavery on the main. It was about forcing the south to stay in the union.

I think we are on the same page now!

[Savez]

Originally Posted by B7B Southern

Unionblue, it seems after a little digging, that information is in family
letters. I will continue along that line when chances are available
to me. I too have read the same ones you have read and saw nothing.
Y'all have my curiosity up now!!

I think the information can be found in some of Hotchkiss's papers. Doubt it is published though.

[B7B Southern]

Originally Posted by Savez

I think the information can be found in some of Hotchkiss's papers. Doubt it is published though.

OK! Drum roll, please!!

From James Robertson, Jr., In his book “The Man, The Soldier, The Legend.”

Pg. 440, 2nd para., Last line.

Jackson directed Captain C.R. Mason
and his black Pioneers to construct a bridge over the breast high
South River.

It didn’t take as long as I thought. Here is a little more about it that
includes The references.

http://history-sites.com/cgi-bin/bbs...=read;id=72968



.............................

PS: Dabney is a Presbyterian minister that rode with Stonewall in the valley.

[Savez]

Mr. Pitts is a wealth of information. He's helped me with my research on the 58th Alabama. I have the book on Jackson by his wife. I'll have to look in there when I get home.

[hellboy30]

Originally Posted by B7B Southern

OK! Drum roll, please!!

From James Robertson, Jr., In his book “The Man, The Soldier, The Legend.”

Pg. 440, 2nd para., Last line.

It didn’t take as long as I thought. Here is a little more about it that
includes The references.

http://history-sites.com/cgi-bin/bbs...=read;id=72968



.............................

PS: Dabney is a Presbyterian minister that rode with Stonewall in the valley.

From that link:

Mason's requisition for labor from Apr 1 through June 30, 1862 can be found on image 53. He received a dollar a day for 53 slaves hired for 19 days from Apr 1-19, 1862 ($1007), 46 slaves hired for 64 days from Apr 20-June 22, 1862 ($2944), and 39 slaves hired for 8 days from June 23-30, 1862 ($312). Image 61 represents a requisition for six months hire of seven slaves dated July 1, 1862. These seven are given first and last names, but are specified as slaves by Mason.
Based on Capt Mason's requisition, the men who worked on the bridge over South River near Port Republic VA were slaves. The 53 men hired by Mason in June 1862 were civilians and must have been contracted locally. They may not have worked beyond the confines of the Shenandoah Valley. J William Jones in the account cited above makes it clear that during the Seven Days Battles Mason had no ready access to labor, slave or otherwise.

I find no evidence that Mason accompanied Jackson's command or served him in any capacity after July 1862. There is a break in his requisitions from late July 1862 through the end of September 1862. At this time they resume for construction work. For that reason we cannot assume that Mason's slave labor could have been observed among Confederate troops in Maryland. Slaves were frequently hired in quantity by Confederate quartermasters, but ordinarily labor gangs did not march or camp with the army during field service.

They were slaves. They weren't freemen. They were hired in & used as labor. They are only referred to as "engineers" because they were the muscle-none had any training as such, nor did they "volunteer".

[Unionblue]

Originally Posted by B7B Southern

OK! Drum roll, please!!

From James Robertson, Jr., In his book “The Man, The Soldier, The Legend.”

Pg. 440, 2nd para., Last line.

It didn’t take as long as I thought. Here is a little more about it that
includes The references.

http://history-sites.com/cgi-bin/bbs...=read;id=72968



.............................

PS: Dabney is a Presbyterian minister that rode with Stonewall in the valley.

B7B Southern,

Thank you for providing the source above, it is sincerely appreciated.

Unionblue

[Unionblue]

Originally Posted by hellboy30

From that link:
They were slaves. They weren't freemen. They were hired in & used as labor. They are only referred to as "engineers" because they were the muscle-none had any training as such, nor did they "volunteer".

hellboy,

Thanks for taking the time to go through the link and find this addtional information.

You and B7B Southern have proved the importance of researching available sources to find out the facts of the matter.

Appreciate it,
Unionblue

[RuselUpsomegrub]

Originally Posted by Savez

Your own source says "Several thousand blacks were enlisted in the Rebel cause". I'm assuming this means after the law was inacted. Until the law, I don't think their were very many blacks actually "enlisted" unless they were "free men of color".




Now whether the owners of those sixty slaves consented, I don't know. Some apparently did.

Yes, my source did state several thousand blacks served. Out of an estimated 4 million in bondage. Again, I do not dispute blacks served, some out of ignorance, some for fear of reprisal, some for their freedom. Some because their masters told them to do so.