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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

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South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

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  #16  
Old 25 Aug 08, 16:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
In 19th century all three of them were part of Russia. Georgia itself at that time was not a "separate political entities".
So, you are saying that Georgia is to blame for Russia's hubris? Russia has never stopped being an empire, not under the tsars, not under the komissars, and certainly not under Putin!
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  #17  
Old 25 Aug 08, 17:04
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No, I am saying that the argument of SO and Abzakhia not being displayed as separate political entities in 19th century is ridiculous.
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  #18  
Old 25 Aug 08, 17:07
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So what happens when North Ossetia tries to declare its independence?
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  #19  
Old 25 Aug 08, 17:14
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Aber, whatever. What answer do you want? What happens if South states will want to declare their independence? If Britain will claim its old colonies back? If all muslims in france will move into one province and declare independence? If China will claim Siberia based on amount of Chinese living there?
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  #20  
Old 25 Aug 08, 17:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
No, I am saying that the argument of SO and Abzakhia not being displayed as separate political entities in 19th century is ridiculous.
True enough, but again this is not Georgia's fault. Russia created this mess, and their solution is to go into a sovreign country, help two regions secede that as far as anyone is concerned are part and parcel of Georgia's territory, camp out in Georgia for the foreseeable under BS pretenses, while the Russian is pretending that it may actually have a scintilla of altruism! BS!!!! Russia went because
a) Georgia had grown too close to the west and
b) Because Russia wanted control of those pipelines
Any statement to the contrary from the Kremlim is pure dookie!
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  #21  
Old 25 Aug 08, 17:43
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Quote:
are part and parcel of Georgia's territory
Well, except people in the regions in questions.

I don't really see what is Georgia problem with South Ossetia. There is freaking nothing there. Georgia should have let them go after (or better yet, before) the 1992 war. that is my point of view (ans see, I am not saying Any statement to the contrary pure dookie )
As for Russia and Georgia - living in the US we can see that politics is not driven by right and wrong, or good or evil. Countries do thing that is in their power to gain certain benefits. Looking into politics from right and wrong point of view is flawed, because there is no country or alliance in the world doing something "because it is good".
From that point of view, "Georgia had grown too close to the west ", became NATO member, increasing their military power in geometric progression rightfully viewed by Russia as a threat.
Besides, Adkhazia and SO were parts of Russia longer than parts of independent Georgia by more than hundred years

As for pipeline - it is rather minor in volume, at least now and in foreseeable future. (if you want, you can look it up at wikipedia) - so, while it has magic word "oil", it does not feel like a real target.
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  #22  
Old 25 Aug 08, 17:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
Well, except people in the regions in questions.

I don't really see what is Georgia problem with South Ossetia. There is freaking nothing there. Georgia should have let them go after (or better yet, before) the 1992 war. that is my point of view (ans see, I am not saying Any statement to the contrary pure dookie )
As for Russia and Georgia - living in the US we can see that politics is not driven by right and wrong, or good or evil. Countries do thing that is in their power to gain certain benefits. Looking into politics from right and wrong point of view is flawed, because there is no country or alliance in the world doing something "because it is good".
From that point of view, "Georgia had grown too close to the west ", became NATO member, increasing their military power in geometric progression rightfully viewed by Russia as a threat.
Besides, Adkhazia and SO were parts of Russia longer than parts of independent Georgia by more than hundred years

As for pipeline - it is rather minor in volume, at least now and in foreseeable future. (if you want, you can look it up at wikipedia) - so, while it has magic word "oil", it does not feel like a real target.
Stop it! You are making sense, how dare you! You must be some kind of subversive!
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  #23  
Old 25 Aug 08, 18:35
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If these 2 outfits want to go separate ways from Georgia, I say let them.

Let them eke out separate existences, as part of Russia if necessary and they feel the need for such protection, though they may regret it later.

Seems to me WWII++, ethnic cleansing is unfortunately the only thing that seems to work with these deep-rooted ethnic hatreds going back sometimes millennia.
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  #24  
Old 25 Aug 08, 22:29
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It's a bit like letting Hitler take over part of Czechoslavakia. That didn't work out very well.
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  #25  
Old 26 Aug 08, 03:12
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Frankly, given that the present population mix in both is the result of ethnic cleansing, then the legitimacy of Russian claims to these territories is even less than there was for Sudetenland and Danzig. It is also very difficult to assess what the people there really want, since they don't have representative governments. The only way to know would be a referendum after a cooling off period.
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  #26  
Old 26 Aug 08, 03:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownBear View Post
Or, we can say this:

In its declaration of independence SO and Abkhazia committed itself to the highest standards of democracy, including freedom and tolerance and justice for citizens of all ethnic backgrounds. These are principles that honor human dignity, they are values Russia looks for in a friend, and soon we will establish full diplomatic relations with the new nation of South Ossetia and Adkhazia.

We will work with the leaders of South Ossetia and Adkhazia to carry out a smooth and peaceful transition to independence.

The independence of South Ossetia and Adkhazia is an historic step for the Caucas region. It presents an opportunity to move beyond the conflicts of the past and toward a future of freedom and stability and peace. The Russia must seize this opportunity to offer all the nations of this region the prospect of integration into the political, economic and security structure of the Russia. In this way, all the people of the Caucas will be able to see the promise of a better life for themselves and for their children.


(lookup the source of that speech)
Don't need to. President Bush had NATO and UN support for Kosovo. Russia is only Russia.
Any which way she is trying so hard to be noticed, but no one cares because she only bares her paws against small countries.
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Last edited by Salinator; 26 Aug 08 at 03:39..
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  #27  
Old 26 Aug 08, 03:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salinator View Post
Russia is only Russia.

Well, she will always have Venezuela.
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  #28  
Old 26 Aug 08, 03:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
Well, she will always have Venezuela.
Haha. If the west werent so busy, it would get so upset about the Sukhoi shield established against America. Damn that half handful of pesky Russian made fighters that impose such great threat on the the US. Its a Russian Sukhoi Defensive Shield in Argentina!
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  #29  
Old 26 Aug 08, 03:46
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Which is why the US needs several more squadrons of F-22!!!
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Old 26 Aug 08, 03:49
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Which is why the US needs several more squadrons of F-22!!!
Stationed in Poland?
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