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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

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South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

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  #46  
Old 24 Aug 08, 06:37
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Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
And to think that with restraint on 8 August, Russia could have maneuvered Saakashvili into the international villain status for his unilateral action in SO.
I don't think so. Whatever he had done the West would have supported him in the end. That can be clearly seen on the media coverage and responses from Western heads of states.
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  #47  
Old 24 Aug 08, 06:52
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why would they do that, gven that he was criticized plenty during the last election debacle and got a pass only because the elections themselves were relatively clean according to observers. Saakashvili is hardly getting any praise right now.
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  #48  
Old 24 Aug 08, 12:13
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Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
why would they do that, gven that he was criticized plenty during the last election debacle and got a pass only because the elections themselves were relatively clean according to observers..
Beats me, too.....

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Originally Posted by pp(est) View Post
Saakashvili is hardly getting any praise right now.
But the Russians (I almost wrote the Soviets...) are getting too much crap. This could well be compared with the Sov... - I mean if the Russians - had supported Mexico in getting back California. Not popular - with Hollywood, Disneyland and all that..........this Balance of Power thing is serious s***
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  #49  
Old 24 Aug 08, 12:47
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Originally Posted by xiong View Post
And the West accuses Putin of trying to restore the USSR, altough he never voiced such intentions.
You're right. He said -

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyadya Putin
the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century”
Doesn't sound like someone pining for the good old days at all.
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  #50  
Old 24 Aug 08, 15:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leandros View Post
But the Russians (I almost wrote the Soviets...) are getting too much crap. This could well be compared with the Sov... - I mean if the Russians - had supported Mexico in getting back California. Not popular - with Hollywood, Disneyland and all that..........this Balance of Power thing is serious s***
The West and Russia have been moving toward mutual alienation for years.

Certainly, the West should have been more outspoken against the Georgian offensive at the outset. It was an unnecessary escalation, which IMHO, should serve as a very stern warning against bringing them into NATO. Had the Russians stopped at the South Ossetian - Georgian border, I would have just said Georgia should have stood down if they didn't want Russia to get in that *ss.

The problem is the Russians didn't stop there. Maybe they'd still get heat from the West if Moscow had. Maybe not. But Russia took it to a level that legitimizes the amount of criticism it has received.
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  #51  
Old 24 Aug 08, 15:33
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Originally Posted by Deltapooh View Post
The West and Russia have been moving toward mutual alienation for years..
If so, I cannot see that the Russians are responsible for that. They have been the underdogs since the Communist downfall. I feel this has been exploited by the West. Shortsightedly. At the same time as the Scandinavian countries have used the opportunity to tear down their defenses - only Finland has upheld anything near their old military capability - the US is intruding on old Russian hunting grounds, so to speak. Expanding NATO and provocating them with the Rocket Shield. I could have said I am surprised that the European leaders are going along with this, but I am not. Politicians are what they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltapooh View Post
Certainly, the West should have been more outspoken against the Georgian offensive at the outset. It was an unnecessary escalation, which IMHO, should serve as a very stern warning against bringing them into NATO. Had the Russians stopped at the South Ossetian - Georgian border, I would have just said Georgia should have stood down if they didn't want Russia to get in that *ss..
I don't see how they could have stopped in Osetia. Now the Georgians have learnt their lesson. That is not to say that I symphatize with any of the parties but there is something called REAL-politik. In this sort of conflict one shall be very well versed in its details to air opinions as hard evidence. But it should be clear to everyone that, the political situation for Russia being what it is at the time, to make provocations of any kind can lead to harsh reactions.

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Originally Posted by Deltapooh View Post
The problem is the Russians didn't stop there. Maybe they'd still get heat from the West if Moscow had. Maybe not. But Russia took it to a level that legitimizes the amount of criticism it has received.
They received plenty of heat long before it became clear that they were staying on. If they are. Wag the Dog.....
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  #52  
Old 25 Aug 08, 08:28
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Originally Posted by vyshka View Post
the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century”
One catchphrase for internal use is all there was to it. Western media also need to sell themselves, hence the hype.

Most importantly, you interpret the phrase as: it's a catastrophe there is no USSR now, let's get it back. Most Russians interpret this as follows: the collapse, the process of collapsing (i.e. what followed shortly before and years after the collapse) was a catastrophe. See? no agression at all.

Because it was a catastrophe, and you probably can't imagine it, unless you have lived through it. When a more or less wealthy country with very high guaranteed levels of minimum consumption and low crime slides into utter second-world chaos in just 5 years - it hurts.

It doesn't mean a restoration is desirable. USSR was not only about borders, it was about ideology and economy as well. Now - there is certainly no communist ideology, and Russia is more capitalist than many West European countries (who are rather socialist by nature).

So, we can only talk about borders, and in this sense restoration is certainly infeasible. By force - everyone agrees here that Russia can't take out NATO except by nukes. By a close alliance of former Soviet states - fantasy.

Putin is more pragmatic than most leaders on the planet now. His choice of Medvedev as successor is another sign of that.
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  #53  
Old 25 Aug 08, 08:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xiong View Post
So, we can only talk about borders, and in this sense restoration is certainly infeasible. By force - everyone agrees here that Russia can't take out NATO except by nukes.
That's the problem - I believe they can. Therefore, I don't like these constant provocations from the US side. It's Europe that shall suffer from it.
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