HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Russia, Central Asia, and The Caucasus > South Ossetian Conflict

Notices and Announcements

South Ossetian Conflict Discuss the conflict between Georgia and Russia over South Ossetia.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #46  
Old 22 Aug 08, 16:27
Deltapooh's Avatar
Deltapooh Deltapooh is offline
General
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Marcus
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Closer than is safe for my enemies
Posts: 4,236
Deltapooh is on a distinguished road [300] Deltapooh is on a distinguished road [300] Deltapooh is on a distinguished road [300] Deltapooh is on a distinguished road [300] Deltapooh is on a distinguished road [300] Deltapooh is on a distinguished road [300] Deltapooh is on a distinguished road [300] Deltapooh is on a distinguished road [300] Deltapooh is on a distinguished road [300] Deltapooh is on a distinguished road [300] Deltapooh is on a distinguished road [300] Deltapooh is on a distinguished road [300] Deltapooh is on a distinguished road [300] Deltapooh is on a distinguished road [300]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
All good points Deltapooh.

Except that I would adjust the last point - containing Russia is a way to force it to get out of Georgia.
I don't think containment is a way to get Russian troops out of Georgia in the near term. Such an effort would be both costly and extremely risky. Economic sanctions and greater military force would likely be the primary instruments of a short-term containment strategy. There is little support for that. Besides, Russia will probably just respond with greater force.

Containment requires alot of time. If Russia's occupation of Georgia proper drags on, less risky and more effective containment options will become available. Hopefully, the West will throw its support behind a regional military alliance of states surrounding Russia. If we can get former satellite states to work more closely together under the banner of somekind of agreement, Russia can be contained without the risk that is associated with the NATO banner.

Also, as I believe you pointed out, there is minimizing dependence on Russian energy. If that is not possible, the West should at least try to block Moscow's effort to expand their exports to the East. At the very least, this could re-establish "mutual dependence."

All this takes alot of time though. Hopefully, the Western alliances will commit to a containment strategy and deter Russia's next military adventure.
__________________
"As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy."-Christopher Dawson - The Judgement of Nations, 1942
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 22 Aug 08, 16:37
Herman Hum's Avatar
Herman Hum Herman Hum is offline
Brigadier General
Canada
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,396
Herman Hum has a spectacular aura about [400]
Herman Hum has a spectacular aura about [400]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jp342 View Post
The USS Dallas (which is the Submarine speculated to go into the Black Sea in the blog link) arrived home in Groton Ct. after a six-month deployment yesterday 8-21-08. Some of the info in that blog is eronious. The Polish and Canadian warships have not been mentioned before as well.
Stop ruining my as-yet unfinished Harpoon scenario...

Thanks for the update. I don't know how they would manage to get a submarine into the Black Sea without the consent of Turkey. I don't doubt that there are vessels that could make the transit, though. Another Harpoon fellow told me that the Bosporous is only 50m deep and the Dardenelles 30m (or vice-versa). So, to try and sneak in a sub is going to be pretty tricky. Conceivably, a sub might try to follow in the wake of a larger vessel like LCC Mount Whitney...

If you have further details of the deployments, I would be grateful for the additional information.
__________________
ScenShare Guidelines:

1) Enjoy creating it
2) Enjoy playing it
3) Enjoy sharing it
4) Enjoy helping others create them

The PlayersDB - The Harpoon Community's #1 Choice.

FAQ http://www.harplonkhq.com/Harpoon/Fr...dQuestions.htm
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 22 Aug 08, 17:20
jp342's Avatar
jp342 jp342 is offline
Sergeant
United_States
 
Real Name: John
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Chicago
Posts: 108
jp342 is on the path to success [1-99] jp342 is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herman Hum View Post
Stop ruining my as-yet unfinished Harpoon scenario... .
LOL... Too funny!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herman Hum View Post
If you have further details of the deployments, I would be grateful for the additional information.
Will do sir!
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 22 Aug 08, 20:09
vyshka's Avatar
vyshka vyshka is offline
Captain
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Jerry Snitselaar
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 817
vyshka is on the path to success [1-99] vyshka is on the path to success [1-99] vyshka is on the path to success [1-99] vyshka is on the path to success [1-99] vyshka is on the path to success [1-99] vyshka is on the path to success [1-99] vyshka is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herman Hum View Post
Stop ruining my as-yet unfinished Harpoon scenario...

Thanks for the update. I don't know how they would manage to get a submarine into the Black Sea without the consent of Turkey. I don't doubt that there are vessels that could make the transit, though. Another Harpoon fellow told me that the Bosporous is only 50m deep and the Dardenelles 30m (or vice-versa). So, to try and sneak in a sub is going to be pretty tricky. Conceivably, a sub might try to follow in the wake of a larger vessel like LCC Mount Whitney...

If you have further details of the deployments, I would be grateful for the additional information.
I think the argument was that a number of vessels had already been approved for transit into the Black Sea to take part in a naval exercise. The exercise was called off due to the conflict, but they were considering using the transit approval that was already given for the exercise to move ships in for whatever purpose.
__________________
"When they get in trouble they send for the sonsabitches." - Admiral King
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 22 Aug 08, 20:38
Galland's Avatar
Galland Galland is offline
General of the Forums
Australia
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
ACG Football Manager of the Season ACG Football Manager of the Season 
 
Real Name: Mr Sparkle !!!!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Springfield
Posts: 9,034
Galland is simply cracking [600]
Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600]
...anyone want to bet that there isnt a new Virginia calss SSN lurking nearby somewhere..? If the re was, it would represent the biggest threat to anyone within 200 miles of its position..!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #51  
Old 23 Aug 08, 01:21
Mountain Man's Avatar
Mountain Man Mountain Man is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Colorado Rocky Mts, USA
Posts: 70,307
Mountain Man has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herman Hum View Post
Stop ruining my as-yet unfinished Harpoon scenario...

Thanks for the update. I don't know how they would manage to get a submarine into the Black Sea without the consent of Turkey. I don't doubt that there are vessels that could make the transit, though. Another Harpoon fellow told me that the Bosporous is only 50m deep and the Dardenelles 30m (or vice-versa). So, to try and sneak in a sub is going to be pretty tricky. Conceivably, a sub might try to follow in the wake of a larger vessel like LCC Mount Whitney...

If you have further details of the deployments, I would be grateful for the additional information.
The problem with sending a sub is that we cannot maintain the fiction of "humanitarian relief efforts", nor could we call this part of a naval exercise that was cancelled. Sending a sub into the same enclosed body of water as the Russian Black Sea fleet, regardless of how out of shape it might seem to be, is a recipe for a major international crisis, despite it being a good idea militarily.

I think we're all going to have to accept that a dying death rattle is about all Bush can hope to accomplish; the military action is over and done with and we lack the reasonable means to put any effective pressure on Russia. I don't like it any more than anyone else, but that's the cost of years of total deployment in the Middle East and that's the way it is. The America that once planned on fighting 2.5 wars anywhere on the globe doesn't exist anymore. We no longer have the forces to project into that region.
__________________
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?

Last edited by Mountain Man; 23 Aug 08 at 01:26..
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 23 Aug 08, 01:38
Galland's Avatar
Galland Galland is offline
General of the Forums
Australia
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 100 Greatest Generals, 2008 Most Decisive Battle Campaign, 2008 Greatest Westerns Campaign 
Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Greatest Blunders Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign 
ACG Football Manager of the Season ACG Football Manager of the Season 
 
Real Name: Mr Sparkle !!!!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Springfield
Posts: 9,034
Galland is simply cracking [600]
Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600] Galland is simply cracking [600]
...good point, though i was alluding to the fact that the sub wouldnt have to actaully be in the Black sea to pose a threat..
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 23 Aug 08, 01:40
TRDG's Avatar
TRDG TRDG is offline
Lieutenant General
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Tom Young
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,699
TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Question Mm

But maybe add in a bigger Navy force, depending on what's going on in Georgia in the near future, it should mean something to Russia if we eventually do that, would'nt it? I don't think they would push things as far in the future IF there was a "bigger" US (and maybe other countries, British maybe??) Naval presence in the Black sea, I bet Turkey would be glad to help out, would'nt they, as to aproval of passage and such??

Cheers, thanks again for the posts here, and as always if you read anything new on this aspect of the Georgian /Russian war, post it here please, thanks.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 23 Aug 08, 02:01
Herman Hum's Avatar
Herman Hum Herman Hum is offline
Brigadier General
Canada
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,396
Herman Hum has a spectacular aura about [400]
Herman Hum has a spectacular aura about [400]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMan View Post
The problem with sending a sub is that we cannot maintain the fiction of "humanitarian relief efforts", nor could we call this part of a naval exercise that was cancelled. Sending a sub into the same enclosed body of water as the Russian Black Sea fleet, regardless of how out of shape it might seem to be, is a recipe for a major international crisis, despite it being a good idea militarily.
Absolutely. Turkey is the 'cork' holding Russia inside the bottle that is the Black Sea. There is no way that Turkey would jeopardize it's strategic position for Georgia.

I also don't think that a large naval force is necessary. The three vessels are significant enough to set the tone. It isn't as if they intend to fight an actual war with Russia. A larger task group would likely play into Russian hands and allow them to say, "See? NATO really is ganging up on us and we have to ensure our security with a buffer zone. Thank goodness we acted pre-emptively."
__________________
ScenShare Guidelines:

1) Enjoy creating it
2) Enjoy playing it
3) Enjoy sharing it
4) Enjoy helping others create them

The PlayersDB - The Harpoon Community's #1 Choice.

FAQ http://www.harplonkhq.com/Harpoon/Fr...dQuestions.htm
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 25 Aug 08, 01:59
TRDG's Avatar
TRDG TRDG is offline
Lieutenant General
United_States
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Real Name: Tom Young
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,699
TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100] TRDG has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Question I've been MIA on this

because of work, any udates on this at all I should know about yet?

Cheers, thanks!

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 25 Aug 08, 02:15
Mountain Man's Avatar
Mountain Man Mountain Man is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Colorado Rocky Mts, USA
Posts: 70,307
Mountain Man has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltapooh View Post
I don't think containment is a way to get Russian troops out of Georgia in the near term. Such an effort would be both costly and extremely risky. Economic sanctions and greater military force would likely be the primary instruments of a short-term containment strategy. There is little support for that. Besides, Russia will probably just respond with greater force.

Containment requires alot of time. If Russia's occupation of Georgia proper drags on, less risky and more effective containment options will become available. Hopefully, the West will throw its support behind a regional military alliance of states surrounding Russia. If we can get former satellite states to work more closely together under the banner of somekind of agreement, Russia can be contained without the risk that is associated with the NATO banner.

Also, as I believe you pointed out, there is minimizing dependence on Russian energy. If that is not possible, the West should at least try to block Moscow's effort to expand their exports to the East. At the very least, this could re-establish "mutual dependence."

All this takes alot of time though. Hopefully, the Western alliances will commit to a containment strategy and deter Russia's next military adventure.
Maybe, and that's a big "if". Whom would the sanctions be against? the two breakaways can expect aid from Russia; the Russians are independent of our potential "sanctions, and the only really vulnerable ones are the Georgians, who we are supposed to be trying to help.

As for blocking Moscow's expansionism, agree - but how?
__________________
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 25 Aug 08, 03:51
Ogukuo72's Avatar
Ogukuo72 Ogukuo72 is offline
General of the Forums
Singapore
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 5,924
Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600]
Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600] Ogukuo72 is simply cracking [600]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMan View Post
As for blocking Moscow's expansionism, agree - but how?
How? Very carefully!
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 25 Aug 08, 05:18
Mountain Man's Avatar
Mountain Man Mountain Man is online now
General of the Forums
United_States
ACG Ten Year Service Award ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon Greatest Spy Movies Campaign Best Pin-Up Of World War II 
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 and preceding Mini-Polls 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Colorado Rocky Mts, USA
Posts: 70,307
Mountain Man has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogukuo72 View Post
How? Very carefully!
It must be nice to live in Singapore and expect the West to solve the problem.
__________________
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? Who is watching the watchers?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:52.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.