"U.S. Boosts Estimate of Auto Bailout Losses to $23.6 Billion"

[The Doctor]

Originally Posted by Exorcist

That's untrue.
False.
Incorrect.
WRONG

Do we have to go back and start with an explanation of fractional reserves and how Banks work?
Wealth is destroyed when stocks go down, thats pretty basic.
Or at least I thought it was...

Jeez people, what's going on in your heads?
BTW- the only way this could not be counted as a loss for the US Gov't is if the fall-back plan is to seize the works, call GM Government Motors and run it as a nationalized industry.
Which was probably the deal all along.

There's no point in going back to an explanation of basic accounting because it doesn't fit the narrative.

[The Exorcist]

Originally Posted by The Doctor

There's no point in going back to an explanation of basic accounting because it doesn't fit the narrative.

As always.

Well, there is one form of money that won't vanish and has never been worthless... but isn't part of the same narrative demeaning Gold & Silver & other PMs?
Yeah, thought so.

[KICK]

you guys are funny

the value money is fictional and changeable.

we work for an idea that the full faith and credit of the United States somehow makes that piece of paper worth something.

shyt ever hits the fan I'd rather have 5000 rounds of 22LR to trade than
a 20 dollar bill.

[Jannie]

Well, for us locally in St. Charles County, Missouri, we are watching General Motors revitalize the Wentzville plant. 1,200 new jobs in the plant here for the new Colorado truck line and another 400 on second shift on an existing van line. Yeah!

Source: http://www.stltoday.com/business/loc...9df3bb469.html

Thanks to all of you fellow taxpayers!

So the value here of added jobs ought to be worth something.

Is it sort of like the government paying Boeing to do fighter jets and Predator type planes? Or is it better because these trucks and vans will be used here in the US for peaceful purposes. Not thrown away in futile wars overseas.

[Lars]

It might be regrettable that we spend a whole bunch of money on questionable endeavors, but I must ask where that money goes?

Wages. Manufacture. Material. Jobs.

This money is not wasted. It's not like supporting industry that few are ready to buy.

The Chevvy Volt would fit well within our requirements, but the price doesn't justify whatever savings I could realize from having one.

Don't know about y'all, but it would take decades to amortize the investment.

I don't have decades, and I'll 'spect y'all don't either.

We don't get to change overnight. We have to creep up on it. And it has to be gradual.

In the same sense, we can't adjust within four years from coal- or gas- or nuclear-fired generating plants to wind and solar. It takes time.

And here is my complaint: Our elected government is overly pressing the issue. Someday, we'll have to get there, but it cannot be done quickly.

[The Doctor]

Originally Posted by Lars

[...]

And here is my complaint: Our elected government is overly pressing the issue. Someday, we'll have to get there, but it cannot be done quickly.

We'll get there when the free market takes us there... Any and all taxpayer money spent on trying to change the market is wasted.

Taxpayer money spent on R&D is not always wasted.

[The Doctor]

Originally Posted by Jannie

Well, for us locally in St. Charles County, Missouri, we are watching General Motors revitalize the Wentzville plant. 1,200 new jobs in the plant here for the new Colorado truck line and another 400 on second shift on an existing van line. Yeah!

Source: http://www.stltoday.com/business/loc...9df3bb469.html

Thanks to all of you fellow taxpayers!

So the value here of added jobs ought to be worth something.

Is it sort of like the government paying Boeing to do fighter jets and Predator type planes? Or is it better because these trucks and vans will be used here in the US for peaceful purposes. Not thrown away in futile wars overseas.

Let's just pretend that we live in an imaginary world in which GM and all of its plants and jobs would have simply vanished if the company had not been bailed out and forced to endure the same sort of Chapter 11 reorganization that dozens of other large corporations have had to endure.

The taxpayers forked over $50 billion in borrowed money to keep GM afloat. GM currently employs ~210,000 people. Let's pretend that the bailout saved all of those jobs.

$50,000,000,000 divided by 210,000 jobs equals $238,095.24 per job... The gov't now expects to lose about 27% of that "investment"... ~$66,000 per GM job.

Now, in the real world, GM and Chrysler would have either worked out a restructuring deal with their creditors and the UAW, like Ford did. Or they would have gone through the same sort of bankruptcy reorganizations that United Airlines, Texaco, Halliburton, Macy's and Trump had to endure. In either case the companies would have continued to operate throughout the process. They would have come out either intact, but trimmed down, or would have been broken up and sold to other automakers and/or investors looking for bargains.

The demand for Chevy & GMC pick-up trucks and SUV's was not created by the bail-out. The demand for Camaros was not created by the bail-out. The production lines for the GM vehicles with genuine demand would have continued, either under the GM logo or under some other automaker.

Jeeps outlived several now-extinct automakers because there was a demand for them.

Bailing out GM and Chrysler was like reviving an obese cardiac arrest victim, performing laparoscopic surgery and giving him a a $50 billion Mickey D's gift card.

[The Doctor]

Originally Posted by KICK

you guys are funny

the value money is fictional and changeable.

we work for an idea that the full faith and credit of the United States somehow makes that piece of paper worth something.

shyt ever hits the fan I'd rather have 5000 rounds of 22LR to trade than
a 20 dollar bill.

Until that sort "shyt ever hits the fan," the economy driven by the concept of value.

[KICK]

Doc, once again you missed the mark so widely that its hard to tell where the projectile landed.

do you honestly think GM disappearing from the map would only affect the employes of GM?

personally, I think the bank bailouts were more wrong than the bailout of vital industries..

[The Doctor]

Originally Posted by KICK

Doc, once again you missed the mark so widely that its hard to tell where the projectile landed.

do you honestly think GM disappearing from the map would only affect the employes of GM?

personally, I think the bank bailouts were more wrong than the bailout of vital industries..

GM would not have disappeared unless the demand for its products and services disappeared. It might not still be called “GM;” but it would not have disappeared.

[lakechampainer]

Originally Posted by KICK

Doc, once again you missed the mark so widely that its hard to tell where the projectile landed.

do you honestly think GM disappearing from the map would only affect the employes of GM?

personally, I think the bank bailouts were more wrong than the bailout of vital industries..

I agree with you - the bank (ie financial bailout, don't forget AIG/Fannie Mae/Freddie etc.) bailout was much worse than the car bailouts by an order of magnitude or more.

1. Simply put, 10 to 50 times more money.
2. Much of this money went overseas.
3. More of the car bailout money found its way to real people.

And speaking only for myself - I have fallen prey to the "bike rack syndrome", the syndrome shown by example board members spending more time talking about a $1,000 bike rack in front of HQ, than a $1,000,000 project for a new process in a factory, because they understand bike racks.

I can more or less put my arms around the auto bailouts - the scope and size and dishonesty of the financial "bailouts" wink, wink I (and I think most people) can't really grasp.

[KICK]

Originally Posted by lakechampainer

I agree with you - the bank (ie financial bailout, don't forget AIG/Fannie Mae/Freddie etc.) bailout was much worse than the car bailouts by an order of magnitude or more.

1. Simply put, 10 to 50 times more money.
2. Much of this money went overseas.
3. More of the car bailout money found its way to real people.

And speaking only for myself - I have fallen prey to the "bike rack syndrome", the syndrome shown by example board members spending more time talking about a $1,000 bike rack in front of HQ, than a $1,000,000 project for a new process in a factory, because they understand bike racks.

I can more or less put my arms around the auto bailouts - the scope and size and dishonesty of the financial "bailouts" wink, wink I (and I think most people) can't really grasp.

and you can actually see the product an automaker builds... not like a fuggin bank, which can be instantly replaced by another bank..

Doc works for the energy Industry,, does he think if Exxon Mobil takes a crap, somebody could immediately pick up the pieces and nobody in the USA would suffer the fallout?

[Lars]

Sorry. I'm a fan of the Doctor. Much of this crap flies over my head, as does much of his. But one of these days I will get some learning and figure out what he is saying. When that happens, I will be unbearable as well.