Need Help With Research - Smolensk 1941 - Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History

Sean Oliver · #1 09 Nov 06, 01:04

Hello, Everybody,

I've been working on researching the battle of Smolensk (1941) on and off for several years, and it's been frustrating because there is a lack of solid data and information available in English or Russian.

I have found some documents and books in Russian online (from Militera.lib.ru, docs.vif2.ru, mechcorps.ru, rkka.ru, etc...) but they don't answer enough questions, and there are still a number of statistics and information which I am trying to find.

Primarily, I'm looking for strengths and casualties of Rifle, Cavalry, and Tank/Motorized Divisions belonging to the Western "Direction" (Western Front, Reserve Front, Central Front, and Bryansk Front) from July 1 - Oct 1 1941.

I'm especially interested in finding out how strong the newly-formed divisions were in July-Sep 41 when they first appeared on the battlefield, and whether they had the full amount of equipment based on shtat (TO&E).

I'm also wondering about details on the Yelnia operation from the Russian perspective. I already have the SBDVOV 37, and 31-32 which cover Smolensk.

Are there any online sources I might be missing?
Do any of you Russians have documents or anything else on Smolensk/Yelnia?
Thanks.

Yours,
Sean

***amvas*** · #2 09 Nov 06, 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Oliver

Hello, Everybody,

I've been working on researching the battle of Smolensk (1941) on and off for several years, and it's been frustrating because there is a lack of solid data and information available in English or Russian.

I have found some documents and books in Russian online (from Militera.lib.ru, docs.vif2.ru, mechcorps.ru, rkka.ru, etc...) but they don't answer enough questions, and there are still a number of statistics and information which I am trying to find.

Primarily, I'm looking for strengths and casualties of Rifle, Cavalry, and Tank/Motorized Divisions belonging to the Western "Direction" (Western Front, Reserve Front, Central Front, and Bryansk Front) from July 1 - Oct 1 1941.

I'm especially interested in finding out how strong the newly-formed divisions were in July-Sep 41 when they first appeared on the battlefield, and whether they had the full amount of equipment based on shtat (TO&E).

I'm also wondering about details on the Yelnia operation from the Russian perspective. I already have the SBDVOV 37, and 31-32 which cover Smolensk.

Are there any online sources I might be missing?
Do any of you Russians have documents or anything else on Smolensk/Yelnia?
Thanks.

Yours,
Sean

Hi, Sean
Probably you missed Krivosheev's book (chapter on casaulities is here)
http://www.soldat.ru/doc/casualties/..._1.html#5_10_7

Also you may try to use OOBs from
http://tashv.nm.ru/
(pages http://tashv.nm.ru/BoevojSostavSA/1941/19410701.html on July 1'41
http://tashv.nm.ru/BoevojSostavSA/1941/19410710.html - on July 10'41
http://tashv.nm.ru/BoevojSostavSA/1941/19410801.html on Aug.1
http://tashv.nm.ru/BoevojSostavSA/1941/19410901.html on Sept. 1)

No site can answer on your questions on casaulities, because there are no exact figures for them.
In any case, it's archival research and not much sites are ready to provide this info.
IMHO the sort of info you need (casaulities and strength) is among the most hard to find (and not online only).
For example I read story how documents of the 18th Rfl. Division were lost in surrounding near Smolensk when they tried to transfer them to the 20th Army HQ. Also documents of the 20th Mechcorps (Mogilev area) were digged out only a year ago, or so. Now they are in private use and I don't know even what do they contain. Documents of the 19th Army were burnt in Vyazma surrounding on Oct. 9'41 (if to follow eye-witness's words)

My friend has worked in archive with this battle and it's not trivial task to find records even there, as they are very dispersed. Many of those records are lost (for example it's especially hard to find something for the 19th Army)

To resume all of this.
i) It's possible to find strengths and TO&E of soviet units on the beginning of fights. however, as I have said, it's not trivial task.
ii) The same info for the battle is much more hard to get access because of reasons cited above.
iii) Exact data on casaulities is impossible to find. Those records even if found can be rather contradictive (some such records can differ in times if compare Army/Corps/Division level documents)

Regards,
Alex

P.S. My great grandpa was missed in the Smolensk battle. Until now we even can't find his unit! Even number of army is unknown. Probably it was the 19th Army. His 365th Field Bank Department was formed on July 9 and was annihilated on July 14'41

***The Purist*** · #3 09 Nov 06, 02:11

"Before Stalingrad" by David Glantz is a good examination of the 1941 battles from the Russian perspective. He reads Russian and has done much of his reseach in Russia with access to the archives.

if you do not read Russian his work has the added benifit of being written in English. He has at least a dozen books on the eastern front which challenge the old cold view of the war in the east.

***amvas*** · #4 09 Nov 06, 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Purist

"Before Stalingrad" by David Glantz is a good examination of the 1941 battles from the Russian perspective. He reads Russian and has done much of his reseach in Russia with access to the archives.

if you do not read Russian his work has the added benifit of being written in English. He has at least a dozen books on the eastern front which challenge the old cold view of the war in the east.

Lets say Glantz often writes his books using Russian miltary literature using German sources as well. Not too bad variant in comparison with many other western authors, but have to say that Soviet literature on the year 1941 can be rather contradictive... And the Smolensk battle is not an exception.

Andrey · #5 09 Nov 06, 03:14

It is possible to explore militera.lib.ru

It contains a lot of memoirs of generals, officers and soldiers.

it contains Soviet historical books.

It is possible to define truth from this huge amount of info.

Michate · #6 09 Nov 06, 06:50

The Germans captured a lot of Soviet army records in 1941.

These should be available at BA-MA (Germany) or at NARA (USA).

***amvas*** · #7 09 Nov 06, 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michate

The Germans captured a lot of Soviet army records in 1941.

These should be available at BA-MA (Germany) or at NARA (USA).

Well-known so called "Smolensk archive". captured by Germans consists of mostly civil, party and NKVD pre-war records.
As for captured military records they can be stored in German/American archives, BUT, when I asked my friend to locate ANY captured Soviet military records there he replied it's not a trivial task, as they are dissolved among records of those German units, who had captured them...

Alex

Sean Oliver · #8 09 Nov 06, 13:45

Thank You Everybody.

Unfortunately, I already have checked all of these sources and sites.

Have any of you Russian readers read the book

Под Ельней в сорок первом--Михаил Лубягов ?

English translation "Near Yelnia in '41" by Mikhail Lubyagov

***amvas*** · #9 09 Nov 06, 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Oliver

Thank You Everybody.

Unfortunately, I already have checked all of these sources and sites.

Have any of you Russian readers read the book

Под Ельней в сорок первом--Михаил Лубягов ?

English translation "Near Yelnia in '41" by Mikhail Lubyagov

I have this book, but can't remember if I read it, or notю
This series of books is known for low reliability....

Sean Oliver · #10 09 Nov 06, 14:03

I am aware that the info I'm seeking has not been published, at least in Russia.
I also have the two "Military Chronicle" books on Smolensk, and the authors do have some good information especially tank strengths. I am hoping others living in Russia may have done a little additional research as well.

There is also a new book in English Moscow 1941 by Roderic Braithwaite which is not really a military history, but rather a social history of the Battle Of Moscow, and there is a chapter about militia forces - the DNO - raised in the Moscow area during the summer.

I have also considered the chance that German Intelligence records of Army Group Center are probably the best available source of info on Red Army strengths and losses.
If there are no Soviet records, the Wehrmacht documents at NARA/BAMA may be the only remaining hope.

Does anybody on this forum visit the TsAMO archives on a regular basis, or know somebody that does?
If so, would you be interested in looking for some info?

Sean Oliver · #11 09 Nov 06, 14:10

Amvas -
Thank you for your excellent replies!
About the book - Do you think it might just be alot of "heroic war stories" or such? What do you mean by low reliability?

***amvas*** · #12 09 Nov 06, 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Oliver

I am aware that the info I'm seeking has not been published, at least in Russia.
I also have the two "Military Chronicle" books on Smolensk, and the authors do have some good information especially tank strengths. I am hoping others living in Russia may have done a little additional research as well.

I have also considered the chance that German Intelligence records of Army Group Center are probably the best available source of info on Red Army strengths and losses.

I have some more records about Smolensk are, including not too bad battle scheme. But they are rather dispersed among my library

I wouldn't be too optimistic for German reconaissance.
At the beginning of the war, for example they often named "Tank brigades" while that time there were no such ones in RKKA at all.
However who knows, maybe some info from them will be useful.

Quote:

There is also a new book in English Moscow 1941 by Roderic Braithwaite which is not really a military history, but rather a social history of the Battle Of Moscow, and there is a chapter about militia forces - the DNO - raised in the Moscow area during the summer.

Btw, I obtain a book about the 17th RD, very interesting. It was formed as DNO and defended Moscow.

Quote:

If there are no Soviet records, the Wehrmacht documents at NARA/BAMA may be the only remaining hope.

Does anybody on this forum visit the TsAMO archives on a regular basis, or know somebody that does?
If so, would you be interested in looking for some info?

Check you PM for some details

Alex

***amvas*** · #13 09 Nov 06, 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Oliver

Amvas -
Thank you for your excellent replies!

I didn't suppose to help much, though....
Smolensk battle is not too well described here...

Quote:

About the book - Do you think it might just be alot of "heroic war stories" or such? What do you mean by low reliability?

I guess it contains bad analysis... Unfortunately modern features of many modern Russian analytical books is very poor knowledge of authors about the subject.
Some series are really horrible...

Military Chronicle last time is a collection of citates from old Soviet books.
I watch only photos from it

Barbarossa · #14 07 Feb 07, 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by amvas

I have some more records about Smolensk are, including not too bad battle scheme. But they are rather dispersed among my library

I wouldn't be too optimistic for German reconaissance.
At the beginning of the war, for example they often named "Tank brigades" while that time there were no such ones in RKKA at all.
However who knows, maybe some info from them will be useful.

Btw, I obtain a book about the 17th RD, very interesting. It was formed as DNO and defended Moscow.

Check you PM for some details

Alex

No tank brigades? Really? I suggest you check Zalogas' list of tank brigades from 1938. What about the 25+ tank brigades in the mechanized corps?

***amvas*** · #15 08 Feb 07, 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barbarossa

No tank brigades? Really? I suggest you check Zalogas' list of tank brigades from 1938. What about the 25+ tank brigades in the mechanized corps?

I needn't checking any foreign sources, as I have Russian ones, which are much more exact.

Tank brigades existed until 1940. When mechanised corps were formed all tank brigades were reorganised.
Mechanised corps of the years 1940-1941 never contained any tank brigades.
I have their full OOBs, so I'm 100% sure in my words.
Tank brigades apepared again later in autumn 1941, when the number of tanks in the Soviet Army reduced much and there wre no possibility to form large armored units.
Later tehy were groupped into Mechanised and Tank corps

Regards,
Alex