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  #16  
Old 06 Oct 17, 16:21
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Some times some on the left can overcome cognitive dissonance and be truthful.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/micha...b_1199252.html
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  #17  
Old 06 Oct 17, 16:55
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Originally Posted by wolfhnd View Post
Some times some on the left can overcome cognitive dissonance and be truthful.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/micha...b_1199252.html
And today we have a West Point cadet wearing this symbol of oppression, murder, and hatred proudly to his graduation...
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  #18  
Old 06 Oct 17, 17:06
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Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
And it's on that count that I consider fascism a left-wing ideology, in that both socialism and fascism maintain that the state is the overarching factor in both public and private life. Under both ideologies the significance of the individual is diminished under the juggernaut that is the state. When viewed like that, both fascism and socialism can be considered little more than slightly different flavors of statism.
That's if you think that statism overrides all other factors combined (it might, I'm not arguing about you about that.)

Facism is a right wing ideology in Polisci.

Only US conservatives and their lexicon think that it is a left wing ideology (there is even a book written about it called "Liberal Facism").
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  #19  
Old 06 Oct 17, 17:20
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Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
That's if you think that statism overrides all other factors combined (it might, I'm not arguing about you about that.)
In socialism, what other agency is there for realizing "collective ownership of the means of production" if not the state?

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Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
Facism is a right wing ideology in Polisci.
I long ago gave up on viewing university PoliSci departments as unique vessels of political wisdom.

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Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
Only US conservatives and their lexicon think that it is a left wing ideology (there is even a book written about it called "Liberal Facism").
If the whole world wears bell bottoms and you refuse, does that mean that you're insane, or that bell bottoms flat-out don't look good except on fashion models?

Not only did Europeans invent socialism, they invented the nation-state. It's their greatest contribution to mankind. How likely are they to admit that they may over overdone it with their statist crap? They have a vested interest in polishing statism's image. It's their baby. They're committed to it, no matter how destructive it is.
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  #20  
Old 06 Oct 17, 18:40
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Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
This trend has been ongoing since the move to PC'ism. After a while, none of the labels mean anything anymore.
This trend has been universal with language. It is not a modern phenomenon. Words and their meanings change, almost inevitably. It isn't PCism that is at fault at all, but basic human nature in regards to human language.
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  #21  
Old 06 Oct 17, 18:42
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Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
That's if you think that statism overrides all other factors combined (it might, I'm not arguing about you about that.)

Facism is a right wing ideology in Polisci.

Only US conservatives and their lexicon think that it is a left wing ideology (there is even a book written about it called "Liberal Facism").
The horse-shoe theory does play a role in that, with the idea that the extremes tend to be harder to differentiate between one another in effect. But even a first year PoliSci student would know that Fascism and Marxism are inherently different beasts, even if the outcome (large and powerful single-party states with large controls over the nation, the economy and the people and a strong desire for authoritarian rule) seems hard to differentiate.

I guess a good analogy would be murder. If I kill my neighbor, I'm still a murderer - regardless of whether I killed them to steal their stuff or killed them as revenge for a bitter love triangle. The outcome and the actions are nearly the same, but the motivation behind it is different.
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  #22  
Old 06 Oct 17, 18:53
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Originally Posted by wolfhnd View Post
"Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

It is reasonable to debate the nature of fascism but it is a symptom of social decline when the definition of words are so fluid that it is impossible to understand what someone is trying to say. The misuse of the term fascism by the left goes beyond propaganda and seems to reflect a cognitive deficit. Any argument they may want to make against nationalism by labeling every nationalist a fascist is destroyed by their apparent low verbal IQ.

Nationalism is an easy target without misusing the language. The problem is the left also seems to suffer from a cognitive deficit when considering any practical considerations. Putting into practice utopian ideology without doing the hard work of laying the practical foundation reflects a personality that is low in conscientiousness. Empathy is no substitute for comprehension and labor.

When we see communist carrying pictures of Mao Zedong, Che Guevara, Fidel Castro or Joseph Stalin the cognitive deficit is apparent. All of these leaders reflect Fascist ideology more closely than any of the people the left labels fascist. They all engaged in dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce. The degree to which they were also nationalists is also fairly apparent.

The educational system is a disgrace and it's failure is not only reflected in the improper use of language by activists but by the incompetence and laziness of the press.
Your argument is subverted entirely because of its one-sided focus on a single side of the equation. The "right" has been misusing Socialism, Marxism and Progressivism (to name a few) for generations. That you then use this somewhat mypotic approach to attack standard targets for conservative rhetoric such as blaming the education system, it also undercuts the ideas further.

We just had 8 years of people calling Obama a Marxist. Anyone - anyone - who doesn't understand why that is absurd doesn't understand that this problem has nothing to do with the educational system (well, not that much) and far more to do with the nature of language and politics.

Terms like Socialist, Fascist, Progressive, Neo-Con are all legitimate terms that have (fairly) well-defined descriptions. But they are used as simple snarl words by the politicos and talking heads because they imbue them with meaning and weight.

There are Americans who honestly believe that the Democrats are a Socialist party and the GOP are a Fascist party. I can guarantee you that you can easily find plenty of examples of this if you use the search function above. And these same people will defend those labels as well, through ignorance or a deliberate desire to provoke (or both).

So no, this is not some disgusting actions on the behalf of those darn liberals. It isn't social decline that can be shoved off onto a separate group. This is something that is used across the board - especially in the United States where legitimate examples of those terms in action are hard to find.
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  #23  
Old 06 Oct 17, 22:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
Your argument is subverted entirely because of its one-sided focus on a single side of the equation. The "right" has been misusing Socialism, Marxism and Progressivism (to name a few) for generations. That you then use this somewhat mypotic approach to attack standard targets for conservative rhetoric such as blaming the education system, it also undercuts the ideas further.

We just had 8 years of people calling Obama a Marxist. Anyone - anyone - who doesn't understand why that is absurd doesn't understand that this problem has nothing to do with the educational system (well, not that much) and far more to do with the nature of language and politics.

Terms like Socialist, Fascist, Progressive, Neo-Con are all legitimate terms that have (fairly) well-defined descriptions. But they are used as simple snarl words by the politicos and talking heads because they imbue them with meaning and weight.

There are Americans who honestly believe that the Democrats are a Socialist party and the GOP are a Fascist party. I can guarantee you that you can easily find plenty of examples of this if you use the search function above. And these same people will defend those labels as well, through ignorance or a deliberate desire to provoke (or both).

So no, this is not some disgusting actions on the behalf of those darn liberals. It isn't social decline that can be shoved off onto a separate group. This is something that is used across the board - especially in the United States where legitimate examples of those terms in action are hard to find.
That is a gross oversimplification. It is like saying that capitalism is not a meritocracy. You are looking for concrete examples of abstract concepts, something that is inherently sophomoric.

There is a reason that Mussolini was a socialist before developing fascism and that the Nazis included the term socialist in their name. As others have pointed out authoritarian ideologies have more in common with each other than with liberalism. Even Marx realized that communism required a dictatorship. So while in theory fascism and communism are distinct philosophies in practice they are necessarily similar.

A philosophy that calls for universal equality and repeatedly fails to achieve it is seriously flawed. Similarly a philosophy that inherently reduces some classes to slavery and it's adherents to overlords but must make temporary exceptions and fails miserably in the end must have serious practical flaws. So while on the surface they may seem radically different their foundation is essentially the same in so far as they erroneously reduce all human interaction to power struggles between imaginary homogeneous groups.

Societies are necessarily cooperative and individualistic and while coercion is always present they become dysfunctional if that coercion is excessive. The human mind is sensitized to coercion and barely notices the cooperation that it is immersed in. Competition itself is a necessarily a cooperative endeavor as a game without rules is unplayable. Games people will voluntarily play over and over have at their core equality of opportunity. The terrible games of communism and fascism share as their core concept an inherent inequality of opportunity which is their shared dysfunction.

What Marx and Hitler share philosophically is a failure to recognize the role of constructive fair competition. Marx was a parasite on his friends and family and even exploited his servants. Hitler was a complete failure in his life until he found a way to eliminate competition by labeling his opponents as less than German. He did this without ever establishing how German he was himself. Both these games epitomize games where the rules are so poorly defined that their author could mold them to disguise the obvious bitterness that dominated their personalities. They are games that turn personality flaws into virtues. Those that have little talent hate the successful.

People get lost in the rhetoric and abstractions of political ideology. Communism and fascism appeal to those unable to empirically evaluate reality. They rely on group empathy for their power. Unable to deal with the complexity of a world made up of individuals they wallow in the putrid limitations of their authors.
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  #24  
Old 07 Oct 17, 00:44
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Originally Posted by Artyom_A View Post
Not every dictatorship is fascist. Communism was left-wing and internationalist ideology, fascism/Nazism - right-wing and nationalist. So the opposite ends of the spectrum.
Of course, the term "anti-fascists" in 2017 is pretty meaningless for a lack of fascists in any sizeable quantities.
Yes. Each side try to label the other one with a name that at least appeal to disgusting reaction. The issue being not about the use but that those persons actually believe to be correct.
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Old 07 Oct 17, 00:45
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Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
That makes ZERO sense. Communism and Fascism are both totalitarian governments, heavy on Socialism in economics, and their one big difference is Communism is internationalist (one world government) versus Fascism being nationalist. In my view that puts them both on the Left with detail differences.
Socialism call for State to control mean of production. Fascism don't. Period.
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Old 07 Oct 17, 00:51
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That is a gross oversimplification...
No. What DoD try to explain is that your set of definition is purely endogene. Lacking any exogene support it turn out as a kind of circular reasonning where a proof for the set validity is taken from the set itself. To some degree this is equivalent to Karl Popper lack of falsification issue.

"Statements, hypotheses, or theories have falsifiability or refutability if there is the inherent possibility that they can be proven false."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
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Old 07 Oct 17, 01:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
...

Not only did Europeans invent socialism, they invented the nation-state. It's their greatest contribution to mankind. How likely are they to admit that they may over overdone it with their statist crap? They have a vested interest in polishing statism's image. It's their baby. They're committed to it, no matter how destructive it is.
In a Democracy, State is the People. That's even the defintion of a Democracy : Power by the People. Calling for State for some issue is not equal to call it for everything. Any democratic society lie between Anarchy and Totalitarism.

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Old 07 Oct 17, 01:38
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Socialism call for State to control mean of production. Fascism don't. Period.
Wrong. There are numerous types of Socialism. You over simplify. One type is state control of the means of production. Another is the state controls what is produced and by whom, but the means of production remain in private hands. This is Crony Capitalism or Statist Capitalism. Both are forms of Socialism.

There are at least a half dozen different forms of Socialism in economics, and that doesn't count minor variations of those.

In Fascism, the norm is Statist Capitalism. It is simply a different from of Socialism. The state allows private ownership of industry and business, but the government directs the economy.
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Old 07 Oct 17, 03:11
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The prerequisite for clear communication is precise definitions of words but that does not imply that what they are used to describe can be precisely defined.

Language has the peculiar property of being real but not represented in physical reality except in the most exotic of senses. Language is abstract as are all social constructions. Although the Landauer principle demonstrates the physicality of information the underlying principles remain obscure. For practical purposes we can think of information as non physical. An example of an abstraction could be a football goal. We can agree on a precise definition of such a goal but you can see, feel, smell, or hear the thing itself. Perhaps money is a better example. In any case things that are not physical exist. One of the properties of things that are not physical is that they are not restrained in the same way physical reality is.

Oddly enough the lack of restraint on abstractions is most evident in their ability to take on an absolute nature. This is most evident in the language of math because it exists in a closed system in which it's definitions are fixed. The number 1 defines the definition of 2 so on and so forth and reciprocally. Spoken language has some of this quality because without rigid definition communication and thought would be nearly impossible.

When we speak this property of language can create the illusion that as Plato would say that our idea of a horse is more real than any actual horse. Plato I'm afraid has passed on this illusion to western civilization.

Language is a tool, and as ever physicist knows a mathematical definition should not be confused with the thing itself. Similarly spoken truth only approximates reality. Reality itself is a complex chaotic system we are unequiped to represent.

So socialism and fascism are real but cannot be represented in physical reality. They are simplifications of a much more complex biological and social reality.

These ideologies take on the nuances of religious systems because they rely on faith in abstractions. Faith that they can be physically represented by social manipulation of a complex chaotic system that we have no way of representing accurately. The simplification that most distorts reality is the reduction of individuals to groups. Liberalism avoids this trap by recognising that only indivisible unit is the individual. The individual is the ultimate oppressed minority. The greatest freedom possible is then achieved by granting the individual and not a group rights.

Beyond that essential requirement to avoid unnecessary distortion of reality within the social abstraction is the necessity that the individual can make economic choices. Complex chaotic systems require a different form of calculation than we are accustomed to. It is necessarily a process of compounded approximation and is hated by the ideological absolutist who like the creationist are unable to comprehend a design without a designer. It is not only dangerous but intellectual dishonest to assume that the individual is in roughly approximating reality and compounded approximation by the sum of individuals not representing reality more precisely than the more artificial and abstract group construction of the collectivist be they fascist or Communist.

The importance of representing reality precisely should be self evident. Swarm intelligence and cultural transmission is how humans achieve this objective. Systems that suppress individuality are inherently handicapped as are systems with poor replication fidelity. If the queen directed every activity of the hive the hive would be as dead, dumb, and blind as a rock. Group identity politics and relativism can in this light be seen as cultural retardation.
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Old 07 Oct 17, 03:27
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wolfhnd is on a distinguished road [300] wolfhnd is on a distinguished road [300] wolfhnd is on a distinguished road [300] wolfhnd is on a distinguished road [300] wolfhnd is on a distinguished road [300] wolfhnd is on a distinguished road [300] wolfhnd is on a distinguished road [300] wolfhnd is on a distinguished road [300] wolfhnd is on a distinguished road [300] wolfhnd is on a distinguished road [300] wolfhnd is on a distinguished road [300] wolfhnd is on a distinguished road [300] wolfhnd is on a distinguished road [300]
Keep in mind in the preceding example that the individual bee is perfectly free to error. Semi random behavior becomes coordinated into a highly efficient hive by communication. That is the nearly physical representation of the principal of free speech and free trade. In complex chaotic systems error of representation can only be eliminated by the approximations of the individual semi random cells. See Stephen Wolfram for a more complex explanation.
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