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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > Latin America & the Caribbean

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Latin America & the Caribbean Including issues of Central and South America and Mexico.

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  #16  
Old 06 Oct 17, 08:03
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Originally Posted by andrewza View Post
Like America does not have evil different dictators as freinds
Quote:
Roosevelt's] Secretary of State, Sumner Welles, once said "Somoza's a bastard!" And Roosevelt replied, "Yes, but he's our bastard."
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  #17  
Old 06 Oct 17, 17:57
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Originally Posted by andrewza View Post
Like America does not have evil different dictators as freinds
Hush, now. People like to forget that America has been a fine friend to evil men when justified the right way.

"Sure, he's a mass murdering Nazi. But at least he isn't a Communist!"
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  #18  
Old 07 Oct 17, 01:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewza View Post
Like America does not have evil different dictators as freinds
Yes, that's true. But, usually the US picks evil dictators that have some use to the US. Cuba has none. The US gains little or nothing being Castro's friend. We didn't mind Saddam when he was beating on the Iranians. Then he stopped doing that and overran Kuwait. Big mistake. He was no longer our buddy and we stomped the snot out of him for it.
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  #19  
Old 07 Oct 17, 07:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
Yes, that's true. But, usually the US picks evil dictators that have some use to the US. Cuba has none. The US gains little or nothing being Castro's friend. We didn't mind Saddam when he was beating on the Iranians. Then he stopped doing that and overran Kuwait. Big mistake. He was no longer our buddy and we stomped the snot out of him for it.
I always imagined that it came down to the rhetoric vs the reality. Americans have had a tendency to present themselves - even outside that oven of bullshit that is D.C. - as a moral and just people who would stand up for the oppressed and who supported universal concepts like individual rights and liberty.

It never gelled with Americans who would then back presidents who in turn backed murdering and authoritarian dictators. It's not that this behavior was unexpected on the international scene - the enemy of my enemy is my friend ain't new, or rare, sentiment - but there was a bit of a disconnect between the two.

At least when the Soviets backed a Communist regime, it made sense that they too would be authoritarian craphole.
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  #20  
Old 07 Oct 17, 10:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daemon of Decay View Post
I always imagined that it came down to the rhetoric vs the reality. Americans have had a tendency to present themselves - even outside that oven of bullshit that is D.C. - as a moral and just people who would stand up for the oppressed and who supported universal concepts like individual rights and liberty.

It never gelled with Americans who would then back presidents who in turn backed murdering and authoritarian dictators. It's not that this behavior was unexpected on the international scene - the enemy of my enemy is my friend ain't new, or rare, sentiment - but there was a bit of a disconnect between the two.

At least when the Soviets backed a Communist regime, it made sense that they too would be authoritarian craphole.
I think in Cuba's case it came down to Obama being a Leftist who had some almost fantasy view of Castro and Communism in Cuba rather than a pragmatic and realistic view of foreign policy.

After all, his administration was siding with Argentina over the Falklands at the OAS. I could see Obama buying the fantasy crap about Che that the Left loves and thinking that he was doing what was right in terms of Social and Economic Justice.

A more reality grounded politician would be doing what's going to get him some personal goal and forward his career when it comes to foreign policy rather than play personal politics.
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  #21  
Old 07 Oct 17, 10:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
I think in Cuba's case it came down to Obama being a Leftist who had some almost fantasy view of Castro and Communism in Cuba rather than a pragmatic and realistic view of foreign policy.

After all, his administration was siding with Argentina over the Falklands at the OAS. I could see Obama buying the fantasy crap about Che that the Left loves and thinking that he was doing what was right in terms of Social and Economic Justice.

A more reality grounded politician would be doing what's going to get him some personal goal and forward his career when it comes to foreign policy rather than play personal politics.
Obama is only a leftist relative to a very narrow, American-centric (and I would say conservative-derived) perspective. He's a relative "leftist" in the same way that you are a leftist when put up against a literal fascist (you dirty Commie you ). Leftist has a stronger meaning than just "left of center" - and anyone claiming Obama is far-left doesn't understand the term.

Remember that Obamas move to normalize relations with Cuba represent what many so-called conservatives wanted: a hands-off approach to foreign policy where we didn't pick fights or fight ideological conflicts. We would normalize relations and go from there. You make deals with scum bags as long as it benefits yourself. The idea of holding onto a relic of the Cold War to try and force political change on another nation... well, that's what Bush and Obama were criticized for as well.

Seems like whether Obama is intervening with forced regime change, or trying to get away from foreign entanglements by opening diplomatic ties, he's just always doing the wrong thing. Can't bomb them, can't open doors to them, and can't maintain the status quo. Man, I dont think he could have done anything without getting criticized.
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  #22  
Old 07 Oct 17, 21:18
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Do people on this thread understand that Obama didn't actually take on Cuba as an ally? He just pulled back on some of the frankly mindless & pointless (except for internal US political purposes) hostility to Cuba. It isn't remotely the same thing.

America has diplomatic relations & does business with damned near everyone. That included Hitler, Stalin, Mao & a collection of nasties that doesn't bear thinking about. Have a guess who Venezuela's largest trading partner is? What Obama did in Cuba was no more than every US President has been doing for well over a century - have formal diplomatic relations with an unpleasant nation. That is it.
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  #23  
Old 07 Oct 17, 23:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BF69 View Post
Do people on this thread understand that Obama didn't actually take on Cuba as an ally?
No one has said or implied such a thing.

Quote:
He just pulled back on some of the frankly mindless & pointless (except for internal US political purposes) hostility to Cuba. It isn't remotely the same thing.
Mindless and pointless to YOU, while living half a world away.

Americans do not take lightly or forget quickly that Cuba allowed Soviet nukes and military bases on Cuban soil within a stone's throw from US Territory.

We also tend to remember when businesses and assets owned by Americans were seized and nationalized by Cuba without even at least fair compensation, and when they forfeit on outstanding loans.

We also don't like to forget their efforts in expanding Marxism elsewhere, here or anywhere else around the world, and especially in our own back yard.

We have a Cuban-American population that is vehemently against the Castro dynasty and Marxism in general.

Cuba in recent years have been cuddling up to Putin. Russia forgave Cuba's debt and there were talks about Russia reopening former Soviet military bases in Cuba. Didn't Russia invade Georgia and Ukraine in recent years for exactly what Cuba has been trying to do?

Quote:
America has diplomatic relations & does business with damned near everyone. That included Hitler, Stalin, Mao & a collection of nasties that doesn't bear thinking about. Have a guess who Venezuela's largest trading partner is? What Obama did in Cuba was no more than every US President has been doing for well over a century - have formal diplomatic relations with an unpleasant nation. That is it.
Yes, but when the country attacks us, why is it wrong to cut relationships?

Embassies and their ground is considered sovereign soil of visiting nation. To attack an embassy is an act of war. The host nation has the responsibility for the safety of the visiting diplomatic mission.
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  #24  
Old 08 Oct 17, 01:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BF69 View Post
Do people on this thread understand that Obama didn't actually take on Cuba as an ally? He just pulled back on some of the frankly mindless & pointless (except for internal US political purposes) hostility to Cuba. It isn't remotely the same thing.

America has diplomatic relations & does business with damned near everyone. That included Hitler, Stalin, Mao & a collection of nasties that doesn't bear thinking about. Have a guess who Venezuela's largest trading partner is? What Obama did in Cuba was no more than every US President has been doing for well over a century - have formal diplomatic relations with an unpleasant nation. That is it.
He reestablished formal diplomatic relations, even though Congress didn't approve any of that like they legally have to. He simply acted unilaterally and outside US law, like he did on so many other things.

So, what Obama did was establish diplomatic relations with a country run by A holes illegally, the A hole.
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  #25  
Old 08 Oct 17, 06:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salinator View Post

Americans do not take lightly or forget quickly that Cuba allowed Soviet nukes and military bases on Cuban soil within a stone's throw from US Territory.

We also tend to remember when businesses and assets owned by Americans were seized and nationalized by Cuba without even at least fair compensation, and when they forfeit on outstanding loans.

We also don't like to forget their efforts in expanding Marxism elsewhere, here or anywhere else around the world, and especially in our own back yard.

Embassies and their ground is considered sovereign soil of visiting nation. To attack an embassy is an act of war. The host nation has the responsibility for the safety of the visiting diplomatic mission.
Dont think they forgot how you sponsored a invasion of there country and tried to kill there president. America has had far more direct impact against cuba than cuba has had against the USA



Maybe if rained in you puppet dictators they wont get over thrown all the time by people who hate America


Like america does not try and expand there influence all over the world. Now you just being hypocritical


And is there any proof that cuba attacked the embassy seeing how this attack is the second of it's kind. Is there proof they not doing any thing about it?
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  #26  
Old 08 Oct 17, 10:00
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Originally Posted by Salinator View Post
No one has said or implied such a thing.
Wrong. You just need to read the thread more carefully.

Quote:
Mindless and pointless to YOU, while living half a world away.

Americans do not take lightly or forget quickly that Cuba allowed Soviet nukes and military bases on Cuban soil within a stone's throw from US Territory.

We also tend to remember when businesses and assets owned by Americans were seized and nationalized by Cuba without even at least fair compensation, and when they forfeit on outstanding loans.

We also don't like to forget their efforts in expanding Marxism elsewhere, here or anywhere else around the world, and especially in our own back yard.

We have a Cuban-American population that is vehemently against the Castro dynasty and Marxism in general.

Cuba in recent years have been cuddling up to Putin. Russia forgave Cuba's debt and there were talks about Russia reopening former Soviet military bases in Cuba. Didn't Russia invade Georgia and Ukraine in recent years for exactly what Cuba has been trying to do?
Sal, thank you for yet another insight into....well, yes. There really isn't any point trying to debate whatever this is, but it is fascinating to see someone act like it is a coherent response. You certainly explain a great deal about your country.

Quote:
Yes, but when the country attacks us, why is it wrong to cut relationships?

Embassies and their ground is considered sovereign soil of visiting nation. To attack an embassy is an act of war. The host nation has the responsibility for the safety of the visiting diplomatic mission.
I didn't address whatever is going on at the moment in any way or at any time, which makes this even more incomprehensible than the stream of consciousness that preceded it.

Last time I checked there was no more than a strong belief that Cuba had done something, which seems a pretty shaky basis for 'war'. Of course, that hasn't stopped your nation in the past.

I am pleased to see that you are so enthusiastic about the Vienna Convention. Have you always been this enthusiastic? I only ask because I can recall the US deploying sound in an attack on the Vatican Embassy in Panama in 1989-90. Of course, the papal Nuncio & his staff were a wee bit more fortunate than the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, which would no doubt have preferred loud rock music & helicopters taking off & landing. Then of course there is the Russian consulate in San Francisco that was raided last month. Another 'act of war'? Perhaps you only get this....animated....when the foul play (suspected in this case) runs one way.

Anyway, thanks for your....contribution.
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Old 08 Oct 17, 13:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewza View Post
Dont think they forgot how you sponsored a invasion of there country and tried to kill there president.
It wasn't an invasion, but an attempted liberation by Cuban nationals.

Quote:
America has had far more direct impact against cuba than cuba has had against the USA.
I hope so. A few more years of applied pressure might have seen the final collapse of Castro dynasty and millions of people dancing in the streets of Miami, if not Havana.

Quote:
Maybe if rained in you puppet dictators they wont get over thrown all the time by people who hate America
We allowed Batista to be overthrown. The US had placed an arms embargo against Batista Cuba and the CIA actually supported Castro. Batista wasn't overthrown by people who hated America, he was overthrown by people who hated him. The US expected Batista to fall, only the speed of the collapse of the Batista army came as a surprise. Americans in Cuba were not even in danger. The evacuation of US Citizens was not even considered by the US Embassy until American tourists requested to return home to the US. The US did not turn anti-Castro until 15 months after the end of the revolution and Castro had gotten into bed with the Soviet Union.

Quote:
Like america does not try and expand there influence all over the world. Now you just being hypocritical.
BS. You're building a strawman. I never claimed such a thing. I laid out the reasons why Americans feel strongly about Cuba.

Quote:
And is there any proof that cuba attacked the embassy seeing how this attack is the second of it's kind. Is there proof they not doing any thing about it?
Another strawman.

What we do know is that our personnel is getting sick or injured and that Raul Castro rules Cuba as an iron-fisted dictator.
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  #28  
Old 08 Oct 17, 14:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BF69 View Post
Wrong. You just need to read the thread more carefully.
Who in this thread had said or implied that Obama made Cuba an ally except in your imagination?

Quote:
Sal, thank you for yet another insight into....well, yes. There really isn't any point trying to debate whatever this is, but it is fascinating to see someone act like it is a coherent response. You certainly explain a great deal about your country.


I didn't address whatever is going on at the moment in any way or at any time, which makes this even more incomprehensible than the stream of consciousness that preceded it.

Last time I checked there was no more than a strong belief that Cuba had done something, which seems a pretty shaky basis for 'war'. Of course, that hasn't stopped your nation in the past.

I am pleased to see that you are so enthusiastic about the Vienna Convention. Have you always been this enthusiastic? I only ask because I can recall the US deploying sound in an attack on the Vatican Embassy in Panama in 1989-90. Of course, the papal Nuncio & his staff were a wee bit more fortunate than the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, which would no doubt have preferred loud rock music & helicopters taking off & landing. Then of course there is the Russian consulate in San Francisco that was raided last month. Another 'act of war'? Perhaps you only get this....animated....when the foul play (suspected in this case) runs one way.

Anyway, thanks for your....contribution.
Is being arrogant and condescending a constant thrill for you? Can you ever post a reply without trying to make it personal with subtle insults that you seem to falsely believe is skirting just inside the rules?

I gave you my take on why Americans would feel strongly about Cuba. No more and no less.

What you feel about America has nothing to do with how we feel about Cuba.

Clear enough for you?
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  #29  
Old 08 Oct 17, 16:12
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Originally Posted by Salinator View Post
It wasn't an invasion, but an attempted liberation by Cuban nationals.

I hope so. A few more years of applied pressure might have seen the final collapse of Castro dynasty and millions of people dancing in the streets of Miami, if not Havana.

We allowed Batista to be overthrown. The US had placed an arms embargo against Batista Cuba and the CIA actually supported Castro. Batista wasn't overthrown by people who hated America, he was overthrown by people who hated him. The US expected Batista to fall, only the speed of the collapse of the Batista army came as a surprise. Americans in Cuba were not even in danger. The evacuation of US Citizens was not even considered by the US Embassy until American tourists requested to return home to the US. The US did not turn anti-Castro until 15 months after the end of the revolution and Castro had gotten into bed with the Soviet Union.

BS. You're building a strawman. I never claimed such a thing. I laid out the reasons why Americans feel strongly about Cuba.

Another strawman.

What we do know is that our personnel is getting sick or injured and that Raul Castro rules Cuba as an iron-fisted dictator.
It was a invasion Castro was seen as the legetmet government


more like decades apone decades on failing


yet your companies had no problem doing lots of business with him


and i just point out that any american that thought that is hypocrite

how is it strawman?
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  #30  
Old 08 Oct 17, 17:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewza View Post
Dont think they forgot how you sponsored a invasion of there country and tried to kill there president. America has had far more direct impact against cuba than cuba has had against the USA



Maybe if rained in you puppet dictators they wont get over thrown all the time by people who hate America


Like america does not try and expand there influence all over the world. Now you just being hypocritical


And is there any proof that cuba attacked the embassy seeing how this attack is the second of it's kind. Is there proof they not doing any thing about it?
No different than Eisenhower invading the Dominican Republic, or the "Banana wars of the 20's and 30's with the Marines occupying Nicaragua, or how about Granada? There's always how Panama was established as a separate nation... How about how Hawaii ended up a US possession then a state?

The only mistake Kennedy made in Cuba was not going all in on the invasion. Had he done that, Cuba would still be the "Las Vegas" of the Caribbean...
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