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Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Current Events > North America

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  #181  
Old 06 Oct 17, 16:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Animal products don't usually make good fertilizer. Usually it's treated plant matter that's used as fertilizer.
My Roses disagree with you, and love their fish fertilizer.
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  #182  
Old 06 Oct 17, 16:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthwys View Post
My Roses disagree with you, and love their fish fertilizer.
So would the rice in a lot of Asia.
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  #183  
Old 06 Oct 17, 16:46
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Originally Posted by Half Pint John View Post
So would the rice in a lot of Asia.
Herbivore poop makes good fertilizer, 'cause it's reprocessed plant matter: high in nitrates. Omnivore or carnivore poop makes poor fertilizer: poor in nitrates. My hippie aunt's hippie-dippy ex-husband left his own, personal, human pies, fresh daily in his garden: couldn't figure out why nothing grew.
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  #184  
Old 06 Oct 17, 16:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slick_miester View Post
Herbivore poop makes good fertilizer, 'cause it's reprocessed plant matter: high in nitrates. Omnivore or carnivore poop makes poor fertilizer: poor in nitrates. My hippie aunt's hippie-dippy ex-husband left his own, personal, human pies, fresh daily in his garden: couldn't figure out why nothing grew.
You always have such interesting anecdotes.
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  #185  
Old 06 Oct 17, 17:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
You always have such interesting anecdotes.
Just be happy that I didn't provide you with a visual.
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  #186  
Old 07 Oct 17, 00:22
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Originally Posted by Jose50 View Post
I was going to post to this thread but after reading through page 7 I thought, 'what's the use...?'
But then you went ahead and posted anyway.....
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  #187  
Old 07 Oct 17, 00:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johns624 View Post
If you reduce muzzle velocity you will outlaw most hunting rounds.
Muzzle velocity of up to 2700 fps allows everything up to 30-06, which will drop any animal in North or South America.
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  #188  
Old 07 Oct 17, 00:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armor11 View Post
Muzzle velocity of up to 2700 fps allows everything up to 30-06, which will drop any animal in North or South America.
And why might a muzzle velocity over 2700fps suddenly be more deadly? 55gr travelling at 3200fps is a varmint round. 175gr traveling at 2600 will put a man on his back. 600gr traveling at just shy of 800 has been a proven man-killer for two centuries plus at what we consider CQB ranges.
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  #189  
Old 07 Oct 17, 00:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
All you do by restricting velocity is make sure that the mass of the bullet goes up to compensate.
You have to start somewhere.

F=ma dude.

Low muzzle velocity limits range and accuracy. If people start to use semi-automatic weapons shooting large caliber bullets it certainly wouldn't be hard to put restrictions on the "m" portion of the equation either.

A mini ball does a lot of damage, But it probably won't go through the human body completely....it has a lower probability of injuring anyone else. So five shots would affect five people. Five shots from a weapon firing in excess of even 2500 fps can wound a *lot* of people with a single bullet. It wouldn't surprise me if people were wounded by bone fragment shrapnel in some of these shootings.

And those high velocity bullets do *massive* damage to human tissue.

Check his out:

From http://www.businessinsider.com/ak-47...-an-m4-2015-12
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  #190  
Old 07 Oct 17, 01:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armor11 View Post
You have to start somewhere.

F=ma dude.

Low muzzle velocity limits range and accuracy. If people start to use semi-automatic weapons shooting large caliber bullets it certainly wouldn't be hard to put restrictions on the "m" portion of the equation either.

A mini ball does a lot of damage, But it probably won't go through the human body completely....it has a lower probability of injuring anyone else. So five shots would affect five people. Five shots from a weapon firing in excess of even 2500 fps can wound a *lot* of people with a single bullet. It wouldn't surprise me if people were wounded by bone fragment shrapnel in some of these shootings.

And those high velocity bullets do *massive* damage to human tissue.

Check his out:

From http://www.businessinsider.com/ak-47...-an-m4-2015-12
Got news for you... Those old black powder rifles will reach out and touch you at incredible ranges. My Sharps is set up more or less like the one in the video.



As for "massive damage" you should look at what musket balls in the Civil War did to soldiers. There's lots of documentation on this and the wounds are horrific, even by modern standards.
And, because of the low velocity, those big lead ball rounds do a lot more damage. Modern high velocity bullets transfer their energy inelastically. That is they retain more energy and transfer less of it to the target, whereas those big, soft lead, musket balls transfer all their energy to the target. That's far worse.
So, instead of a nice clean, small wound channel, you get a big wound with a train wreck of damage at the end.

And, then there's reloaders. These people make their own rounds. I do that for black powder. I have a mold for a 550 grain Minnie ball for the Sharps. Three grease groove, in a semi-spritzer style bullet.
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  #191  
Old 07 Oct 17, 02:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
As for "massive damage" you should look at what musket balls in the Civil War did to soldiers. There's lots of documentation on this and the wounds are horrific, even by modern standards.
And, because of the low velocity, those big lead ball rounds do a lot more damage. Modern high velocity bullets transfer their energy inelastically.
You didn't read the article.

Here's one of the relevant sections:

Quote:
KE = M (V1-V2)2

Breaking this equation down into its components, we have kinetic energy (KE) influenced by the mass (M) of the penetrating missile, as well as the velocity (V) of the missile.

This makes sense; it is logical that a heavier, faster missile will do more damage than a lighter, slower missile. What is important to understand is the relative influence that mass and velocity have on kinetic energy, as this is key to understanding why I'd rather be shot with an AK than with an M4.

You'll notice that the mass component of the KE equation is halved, whereas the velocity component is squared. For this reason, the velocity of the projectile has far more bearing on the energy that it delivers into the target than the mass.
But the laws of physics aside, you're missing the overall point here. We can bicker all we want over caliber vs velocity, the point is to reduce the power of the round. Muzzle velocity might not be the BEST way to do that, but science will tell. The point is to be committed to reducing the deadliness of the bullet. You can do that without getting into a debate about the meaning of an "assault weapon."
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  #192  
Old 07 Oct 17, 02:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
And why might a muzzle velocity over 2700fps suddenly be more deadly?
2700 is just a speed limit based on easily understood performance characteristics.

One could easily create a table of bullet performance based on KE if one wanted to....it would be a simple exercise to map that to a Springfield 30-06 which is a perfectly reasonable upper limit of the power required for recreational hunting.
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  #193  
Old 07 Oct 17, 02:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armor11 View Post
2700 is just a speed limit based on easily understood performance characteristics.

One could easily create a table of bullet performance based on KE if one wanted to....it would be a simple exercise to map that to a Springfield 30-06 which is a perfectly reasonable upper limit of the power required for recreational hunting.
They already have those...

http://www.sierrabullets.com/resourc...-coefficients/
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  #194  
Old 07 Oct 17, 02:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armor11 View Post
You didn't read the article.

Here's one of the relevant sections:

But the laws of physics aside, you're missing the overall point here. We can bicker all we want over caliber vs velocity, the point is to reduce the power of the round. Muzzle velocity might not be the BEST way to do that, but science will tell. The point is to be committed to reducing the deadliness of the bullet. You can do that without getting into a debate about the meaning of an "assault weapon."
It's largely irrelevant as it's too generalized. For example, one measure formula for performance is the British "Figure of Merit" formula:

f d^2 m v^1.2

Where:
f = a design factor based on the shape of the bullet
d = diameter of the bullet in inches
m = weight of the bullet in pounds
v = striking velocity in feet per second.

Note that last one: It's the striking velocity, not the muzzle velocity that's important. Smaller, lighter bullets tend to lose velocity faster than larger heavier ones.

If you run this on various rounds, it becomes apparent what you are saying is BS.

For example, a 9mm Parabellum round works out to a value of 8.8. A .45 ACP round is 19.4. That's at 100 yards. The .45 round has a lower muzzle velocity, and a lower one at 100 yards as well, significantly lower. Yet, the larger, heavier round does way more damage than the lighter 9mm does.

Now, take hollow points, or other rounds like that and factor that in...

Oh, and don't tell me that hollow points can be outlawed. It's too easy to make your own if you want.
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  #195  
Old 07 Oct 17, 02:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armor11 View Post
2700 is just a speed limit based on easily understood performance characteristics.

One could easily create a table of bullet performance based on KE if one wanted to....it would be a simple exercise to map that to a Springfield 30-06 which is a perfectly reasonable upper limit of the power required for recreational hunting.
Realizing of course that the Cartridge .30 Caliber M1-1906 is what's considered to be a "Full Power" rifle cartridge, and all of the rounds used by modern carbines are "Intermediate Cartridges" you have effectively banned nothing at all.

Rounds off the top of my head that are more potent than 30-06:

.338 Lapua
.50 BMG
7.62 x 54R (The most modern versions only, not the old WWI loads)

And a number of wildcat rounds.

Fun fact, most of those rounds are typically fired in Bolt Action rifles....or full-up Medium or Heavy Machine Guns.

Going off of an actual measurement of some sort of 'lethality' with the 30-06 as a rubric, your primary rounds for carbines, those being 5.56x45, 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 are all inferior rounds and therefore not more deadly.

As for your whole argument about muzzle velocity, that is a function of barrel length more than it is of cartridge. 9mm out of a short barrel is going far slower than it is out of a longer barrel, and that's dealing with the difference between a 2.5in and 5in barrel.

There has been actual testing that has proven that out of an 18in barrel AR15 no commercially available 5.56mm round can penetrate a Level III steel plate. OTOH, out of a 24in barrel bolt-action rifle in 5.56....cheapy chucker 55gr FMJ will punch right through.

So, to summarize:

Your concept of using muzzle velocity as a regulator has the following problems:

1) Muzzle Velocity is entirely variable on the length of barrel, action of the firearm (gas operated semi-auto bleeds some velocity off compared to a bolt gun), and the combination of bullet weight.

2) Muzzle velocity is only one factor in play with how a round operates and its 'lethality'. .17HMR at 2500fps has 245ft/lbs of energy. 9mm at 1250fps has over 400ft/lbs energy.

In short, in your effort to find a magical point at which a bullet is just 'too lethal' because of its speed and/or size, you have made illegal the majority of hunting firearms....while not one of the semi-auto carbines so greatly maligned is affected. Thanks, now you have every hunter in America out there with an AR15 or AR10.

Anyway, why would you be concerned with the range of the round. The vast majority of all murders are committed at within 21 feet. Among mass shooters, there are only three I can think of that killed in excess of 50 yards. Those are Vegas, DC Sniper, and UT Clocktower. The very rounds you're concerning yourself with are the ones that have the most sporting purpose while also having the lowest probability of use as an implement of murder.




One might argue that this is why people who have no knowledge of a subject should not propose regulations. I wouldn't want my mother proposing building codes after all......
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