HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War I

Notices and Announcements

World War I The war to end all wars.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 24 Sep 17, 12:06
MarkV's Avatar
MarkV MarkV is online now
General of the Forums
UK
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Tenbury Wells
Posts: 12,581
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeMeech View Post
Hi

For the British, both MI6 and GHQ France ran sources behind the German lines, this resulted in some 'rivalry' (chapter 5 in Beach, and Chapter 3 in Jeffery covers this and other espionage activities on the Western Front, Chapter 6 in Occleshaw also has information).
One should see Drakes history. Drake was head of MI5 and was asked in 1919 to document the history of the Secret Service MI6. I enclose his opening paragraphs

Quote:
THE SECRET SERVICE

GENERAL ORGANISATION
1. At the opening of the above period the Secret Service was organised into two offices under GHQ, the one situated at FOLKESTONE under Major A.C. CAMERON, the other in LONDON under Major B.A. WALLINGER. At the same time there was a branch office, attached to Major Cameron's FOLKESTONE office, working in PARIS under Captain Hon. G.J.G. BRUCE whose chief function was the recruitment of agents amongst Belgians and French in unoccupied France.

SYSTEM OF OBTAINING INFORMATION
2. Both these organisations operated through Holland and maintained their own system of head-men, couriers, passeurs and agents as well as separate offices. They were, in fact, not only in actual if unconscious competition with each other, but also with parallel systems controlled by the War Office and our French and Belgian Allies.

3. French and Belgian organisations were also established at FOLKESTONE and worked in liaison with our FOLKESTONE office. In the case of the Belgians this liaison was slight.

4. In addition, a nebulous Russian organisation was at work, with the secrecy which one might expect, in PARIS, and it is believed in Holland. Beyond the fact that the officers in charge themselves later became suspected, and so attracted the attention of the Contre-Espionage section of the 1 (b) organisation, no relations were at my time established.

5. Whether the suspicions against them had any foundation or not, the possibility of their entering the field in Belgium and Holland as bidders for our own and other Allied services is not excluded. Nor is it possible to say in whose interests these services, if purchased, were bought; or how much such purchase, if it occurred, contributed to the dislocation of our Secret Service organisations.

UNHEALTHY COMPETITION BETWEEN SERVICES
6. The competition between services referred to in para 2 was unhealthy and is apt to lead to the downfall of one or other of the many systems working under the head organisations. It is unfair to the agents and other personnel, and in some cases, led to their destruction, owing to the jealousies of the higher subordinates, who, naturally, worked in the keenest competition one with the other, but often without regard to the interests of the agents concerned. Such conduct on the part of unscrupulous persons is bound to lead to disastrous results, as far as the agents themselves are concerned, and the service as a whole suffers. It is only necessary to instance PUTTMAN, ARCHAIN and the courier GEORGE, amongst others in the G.H.Q. services alone.

RESULTS OF ABOVE
6A. In spite of the excellent results produced, there is little doubt that denunciations, buying up of other services' agents, duplication of reports, and collaborations between agents of the various Allied systems were not uncommon, so that the information arrived at the various Headquarters in a manner which was not only confusing but sometimes unreliable and apt to be dangerous. This was due to the fact that there was an apparent confirmation of news, really originating from the same source, owing to its being received at Allied Headquarters from what appeared to be different and independent places of origin.
He covers the tortuous attempts to resolve the issues and goes on to say how further things got messed up later in 1917 when the USA started to operate an intelligence system in the same area with almost no experience, no rules, no idea of inter allied co-operation but seemingly unlimited finance. He does not use the exact words but 'loose cannon' shouts from the page
__________________
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 25 Sep 17, 12:15
Canuckster's Avatar
Canuckster Canuckster is offline
Major General
Canada
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 2,906
Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500]
Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500]
Looks like this thread is getting some good intel gathered. Thank you gents

A couple of the books are available through the intra-library loan system. The book "Haig's Intelligence by Jim Beach" piqued my interest until I saw how much it would be to order...>$100.00 !!! Too rich for this man's blood, the other books should suffice.

I did read the reviews on Haig's Intelligence and it seemed to cover one of the aspects of this that I'm interested in and that is the relationship between Haig and his Chief of Intelligence John Charteris. The very first book I read on Haig was that by James Marshall-Cornwall who served on Charteris' staff. JM-C claimed that Charteris provided overly optimistic assessments stating the Germans were on the verge of collapse which would explain Haig's continuing on with his big pushes of 1916-17 well beyond the point of diminishing returns. This is the view I have held since.

The "Haig's Intelligence" reviews seem to indicate that the book's conclusion was that they shared the same viewpoint and Haig would have continued on regardless in those campaigns. This is supported by the fact that in 1918, after Charteris was let go and the assessments now became less optimistic Haig was still determined to go for the big breakthrough (and in 1918 he would finally be right about it).

My pet theory is this relationship would also have affected David Lloyd-George's opinions on Haig. George Macdonough was the Director of Intelligence in London, was much less optimistic in his reports and would have the ear of DL-G. During the 1916-17 timeframe DL-G must have looked at what Macdonough was saying compared to what he was getting from Haig/Charteris and comparing it to what they were achieving on the battle field. No wonder why DL-G was losing faith in Haig.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 25 Sep 17, 13:01
MarkV's Avatar
MarkV MarkV is online now
General of the Forums
UK
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Tenbury Wells
Posts: 12,581
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuckster View Post
Looks like this thread is getting some good intel gathered. Thank you gents

A couple of the books are available through the intra-library loan system. The book "Haig's Intelligence by Jim Beach" piqued my interest until I saw how much it would be to order...>$100.00 !!! Too rich for this man's blood, the other books should suffice.

I did read the reviews on Haig's Intelligence and it seemed to cover one of the aspects of this that I'm interested in and that is the relationship between Haig and his Chief of Intelligence John Charteris. The very first book I read on Haig was that by James Marshall-Cornwall who served on Charteris' staff. JM-C claimed that Charteris provided overly optimistic assessments stating the Germans were on the verge of collapse which would explain Haig's continuing on with his big pushes of 1916-17 well beyond the point of diminishing returns. This is the view I have held since.

The "Haig's Intelligence" reviews seem to indicate that the book's conclusion was that they shared the same viewpoint and Haig would have continued on regardless in those campaigns. This is supported by the fact that in 1918, after Charteris was let go and the assessments now became less optimistic Haig was still determined to go for the big breakthrough (and in 1918 he would finally be right about it).

My pet theory is this relationship would also have affected David Lloyd-George's opinions on Haig. George Macdonough was the Director of Intelligence in London, was much less optimistic in his reports and would have the ear of DL-G. During the 1916-17 timeframe DL-G must have looked at what Macdonough was saying compared to what he was getting from Haig/Charteris and comparing it to what they were achieving on the battle field. No wonder why DL-G was losing faith in Haig.
Looking in Bookfinder Amazon UK can offer an acceptable quality 2nd hand copy for under £13.00 and new ones are available at about £25.00
I think you would get a more balanced view from Gary Sheffield's book on Haig
__________________
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 25 Sep 17, 17:30
MikeMeech's Avatar
MikeMeech MikeMeech is offline
Gunnery Sergeant
UK
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Clacton-on-Sea
Posts: 181
MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99]
Hi

While what we would now call 'Strategic' and 'Operational' Intelligence was of immense use the 'Tactical' level of intelligence was also very useful and of more immediate use to the troops on the ground. Intelligence gained from aerial photos has been mentioned previously but the aeroplane was used to gather all sorts of 'Information' useful for Intelligence purposes. In the RFC/RAF it was the Corps Squadrons that gathered useful material as well as their artillery spotting etc. This role was actually included in SS131 'Co-operation of Aircraft with Artillery', the December, 1917 has it on page 45 'IX-Intelligence and Reports'. The nature of information was of two kinds; 1. Intelligence regarding the enemy's artillery, this included the location of batteries and observation stations, Activity of batteries and occupation of positions, Areas shelled by hostile batteries. 2. General intelligence, this included New works and trenches of every description, Movements on roads and railways, Location of dumps, billets and camps. The latter would be reported to the Branch Intelligence Officer (BIO) on the squadron while the artillery intelligence would be reported to the artillery liaison officer on the squadron. This information would not only be gathered on artillery patrols but also on 'Flash' patrols (looking out for flashes from enemy artillery) and 'Trench' or 'Line' patrols.
Of more immediate use to the troops was information gathered by the Counter Attack Patrol (CAP) machine during a battle. The Corps squadron would have a series of machines up all day to watch out for enemy counter attacks or their forces building up to undertake one. The CAP had been one of the tasks of the Contact Patrol (CP) machine during 1916, however, undertaking both tasks with one machine was asking a lot so during 1917 these tasks were gradually allotted to different machines (originally the term 'Special Contact Patrol' was often used). In minor engagements one aircraft could, if necessary undertake both tasks, however, for most battles it was separate. On spotting an enemy counter attack building up the aircraft would warn the infantry, by 1918 this was usually a red parachute flare dropped from the direction the counter-attack was coming (other methods were also used), the CAP machine would also wireless for artillery to fire on the enemy and/or undertake an attack with its bombs and machine guns on the enemy. In modern terms this could be classed as the 'STA' part of 'ISTAR', Surveillance and Target Acquisition. After August 1918 the CAP and CP machines could also send wireless calls to bring in more air support, via the Central Wireless Station and the newly introduced Central Information Bureau, on targets suitable for bombing and machine gunning. This was basically almost 'real time' use of intelligence on the battlefield. Although weather was always the biggest enemy for use of aircraft during WW1 and even later wars.

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 26 Sep 17, 08:14
MikeMeech's Avatar
MikeMeech MikeMeech is offline
Gunnery Sergeant
UK
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Clacton-on-Sea
Posts: 181
MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99]
Hi

I have attached a report on 'intelligence' obtained from a German Observer who was shot down and captured in December 1916 (UKTNA AIR 1/2141/209/1/50). This may be of interest to some.

Mike

WW1Germanpowrpt002.jpg
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #21  
Old 04 Oct 17, 05:48
Johan Banér's Avatar
Johan Banér Johan Banér is offline
General of the Forums
Sweden
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Uppsala
Posts: 6,267
Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700]
What the OP seems to be looking for re the French in WWI is the "2ème Bureau":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuxième_Bureau

Not sure how much further you can get on that in English. Fair amount of stuff in French I recon? The French were particularly good at cryptography I gather.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05 Oct 17, 23:01
Canuckster's Avatar
Canuckster Canuckster is offline
Major General
Canada
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 2,906
Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500]
Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Banér View Post
What the OP seems to be looking for re the French in WWI is the "2ème Bureau":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuxième_Bureau

Not sure how much further you can get on that in English. Fair amount of stuff in French I recon? The French were particularly good at cryptography I gather.
Not much on the 2eme Bureau in English around here I'm afraid. Everything is anglo-centric, which I'm still interested in, but it would be nice to expand the knowledge a little more on the French side of things. I'm somewhat surprised on how little there is on web.

Interesting to note from your link even though not WW1 related. Now admittedly I'm not well read up on the subject but what I have read on the subject usually involved more of the Poles activity re pre-war engima and this is the first I've of the French's involvement...

Quote:
"Prior to World War II, a Deuxième Bureau agent codenamed 'Rex' made contact with Hans-Thilo Schmidt, a German cipher clerk, in the Grand Hotel of the Belgian town of Verviers. Schmidt, who worked at Defence Ministry Cipher Office in Berlin, sold the French the manuals explaining how to operate the top secret Enigma cipher machine being used by the German Army. Schmidt ultimately provided all the information necessary to crack the complex ciphers, which would play a key role in the Allied victory."
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06 Oct 17, 05:48
Johan Banér's Avatar
Johan Banér Johan Banér is offline
General of the Forums
Sweden
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Uppsala
Posts: 6,267
Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700] Johan Banér is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuckster View Post
Interesting to note from your link even though not WW1 related. Now admittedly I'm not well read up on the subject but what I have read on the subject usually involved more of the Poles activity re pre-war engima and this is the first I've of the French's involvement...
Yep, it's curious... might have to try to look into that.

Though sometimes I think that everyone and his granny was breaking the German cipher machines early in the war. Something about the unique British perspective on their achievements there... It seems it was less about intel gathering and cryptography, but more about the most roundabout way of doing it, which at the same time advanced man into the computer age because Turing was a nutty genius. If the British had stuck to the conventional combo of agents, intel and cryptography, they could have gotten there by a more direct route. The Swedes did.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06 Oct 17, 07:25
MarkV's Avatar
MarkV MarkV is online now
General of the Forums
UK
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Tenbury Wells
Posts: 12,581
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuckster View Post
Not much on the 2eme Bureau in English around here I'm afraid. Everything is anglo-centric, which I'm still interested in, but it would be nice to expand the knowledge a little more on the French side of things. I'm somewhat surprised on how little there is on web.

.
Second bureau / by Philip John Stead. published in 1959. 2nd hand copies are available for well under £10

However the 2eme Bureau was akin to MI6 and ran strings of agents in foreign countries rather than dealing with collecting tactical intelligence at the front
__________________
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06 Oct 17, 14:02
MikeMeech's Avatar
MikeMeech MikeMeech is offline
Gunnery Sergeant
UK
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Clacton-on-Sea
Posts: 181
MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99]
Hi

Also another source of information was gathering up documents from POWs and from dugouts after capturing areas of the enemy's front line, this is covered in chapter 4 of 'Haig's Intelligence' by Beach. Examples from 1917 include the capture of the German 'Manual of Position Warfare for All Arms'
I have attached the cover the Part 6 from both the 1st January, 1917 edition and the 1st September edition. After capture these were translated and then published by GHQ, the 1st January edition by 25th May, 1917 (as SS 563) and the 1st September edition by 7th December, 1917 (as SS 619). This latter edition was also distributed to the US and Italian Forces and probably others, although I have not seen their copies.
This means they were being read by the allies not long after it had been issued to the Germans, so meeting two of the 'Principles of Intelligence'; 'Timeliness' and 'Accessibility'. These documents were read by at least some of the officers that received them as the German methods contained in them are mentioned in relation to British methods and procedures during the winter of 1917/18.
Also of note is the fact they are marked as "Not to be taken into the Front Line", examples of officers of all nations in different conflicts thinking that security rules do not apply to them are rather too common.

Mike

WW1gerdocint002.jpg

WW1gerdocint003.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06 Oct 17, 14:49
MarkV's Avatar
MarkV MarkV is online now
General of the Forums
UK
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Tenbury Wells
Posts: 12,581
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeMeech View Post
Hi

Also another source of information was gathering up documents from POWs and from dugouts after capturing areas of the enemy's front line, this is covered in chapter 4 of 'Haig's Intelligence' by Beach. Examples from 1917 include the capture of the German 'Manual of Position Warfare for All Arms'
I have attached the cover the Part 6 from both the 1st January, 1917 edition and the 1st September edition. After capture these were translated and then published by GHQ, the 1st January edition by 25th May, 1917 (as SS 563) and the 1st September edition by 7th December, 1917 (as SS 619). This latter edition was also distributed to the US and Italian Forces and probably others, although I have not seen their copies.
This means they were being read by the allies not long after it had been issued to the Germans, so meeting two of the 'Principles of Intelligence'; 'Timeliness' and 'Accessibility'. These documents were read by at least some of the officers that received them as the German methods contained in them are mentioned in relation to British methods and procedures during the winter of 1917/18.
Also of note is the fact they are marked as "Not to be taken into the Front Line", examples of officers of all nations in different conflicts thinking that security rules do not apply to them are rather too common.

Mike

Attachment 72040

Attachment 72041
There is a well known photograph of Bristol Fighter crews turning out their pockets before getting in their aircraft.

As well as attempting to enforce the no documents rule the British army kept hammering home the name rank and number only if captured rule. POWs on all sides and of all ranks proved remarkably chatty when captured. There was no need for any form of "enhanced interrogation" - tea and sympathy worked better.

I sometimes suspect that the tradition of entertaining a downed pilot in the mess for dinner may have had less to do with fraternal spirit between fellow airmen and more to do with getting him drunk so the squadron intelligence officer could gently pump him.

In "The Last of the Ebb: The Battle of the Aisne, 1918" by Sidney Rogerson there is an account of the confusion created when a raiding party brought back a button identifying a German unit which had only recently been engaging the same British units on a different sector of the front. It turned out that one member of the raiding party had dropped a souvenir and another soldier had picked it up.
__________________
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

Last edited by MarkV; 06 Oct 17 at 16:25..
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08 Oct 17, 14:29
MikeMeech's Avatar
MikeMeech MikeMeech is offline
Gunnery Sergeant
UK
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Clacton-on-Sea
Posts: 181
MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99]
Hi

POW questioning did not just supply 'tactical' information but also information that could build up a picture of the enemy military 'system'. The attached item gives information on air training in Bavaria. In Germany during WW2 the Germans built up a good knowledge of Bomber Command training by putting information from POW reports together even making a film to show how BC carried out their training.
The attached is from GHQAEF 'Summary of Air Information No.58' of September 28, 1918, but is originally from British sources.

Mike

WW1gerdocint005.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08 Oct 17, 16:16
MarkV's Avatar
MarkV MarkV is online now
General of the Forums
UK
Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Tournament 1 of the ACG 2017-2018 
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Tenbury Wells
Posts: 12,581
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700] MarkV is a glorious beacon of light [700]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeMeech View Post
Hi

POW questioning did not just supply 'tactical' information but also information that could build up a picture of the enemy military 'system'. The attached item gives information on air training in Bavaria. In Germany during WW2 the Germans built up a good knowledge of Bomber Command training by putting information from POW reports together even making a film to show how BC carried out their training.
The attached is from GHQAEF 'Summary of Air Information No.58' of September 28, 1918, but is originally from British sources.

Mike

Attachment 72046
In WW2 the good picture was partially distorted by POWs providing deliberately spurious technical information. A classic case being the unknown Coastal Command crewman who told the Germans that they were picking up radiation leakage from a particular electronic box on U-boats which led to a long a fruitless project to shield it whilst the subs were being detected by airborne Centimetric radar The irony was that the device in question was intended to pick up radar transmissions that the RAF were no longer using. The genius of the deception was that the box did indeed leak but never enough for reliable detection so that the Germans spent resources fixing a real problem but one that didn't matter.
__________________
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08 Oct 17, 18:20
MikeMeech's Avatar
MikeMeech MikeMeech is offline
Gunnery Sergeant
UK
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Clacton-on-Sea
Posts: 181
MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99] MikeMeech is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
In WW2 the good picture was partially distorted by POWs providing deliberately spurious technical information. A classic case being the unknown Coastal Command crewman who told the Germans that they were picking up radiation leakage from a particular electronic box on U-boats which led to a long a fruitless project to shield it whilst the subs were being detected by airborne Centimetric radar The irony was that the device in question was intended to pick up radar transmissions that the RAF were no longer using. The genius of the deception was that the box did indeed leak but never enough for reliable detection so that the Germans spent resources fixing a real problem but one that didn't matter.
Hi

This was the German 'METOX' receiver. This was not designed to pick up microwaves therefore was not picking up ASV III or other microwave radars. The U-Boat crews lost faith in it, and considered various reasons for its failure, however, the Germans working on this system were unaware of the microwave radars at the time. (see pages 340-341 in 'A Radar History of World War II' by Louis Brown, and page 403 in 'Hitler's U-Boat War - The hunted 1942-1945' by Clay Blair). The Germans had found that the system did 'leak' as all heterodyne receivers did. The CC POW is alleged to have made the remarks on "the patrol planes were indeed homing on the receivers" at about the same time these discussions were going on. Donitz ordered all METOX sets removed, 13 August 1943, and replaced by the WANZ G-1, this radiated less, but also did not detect centimetric radar.

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11 Oct 17, 01:19
Canuckster's Avatar
Canuckster Canuckster is offline
Major General
Canada
ACG 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 2,906
Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500]
Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500] Canuckster is a jewel in the rough [500]
I'm getting to about half way through reading Maurice Baring book "RFC HQ 1914-1918". Baring served in the Intelligence Corps and RFC/RAF during the war.

He was there with the first RFC squadron over in France and during the time of falling back to the Marne. He mentions several times that he ran into French or Belgian officers who gave him suspicion that they weren't who they appeared to be. At one point he mentions that the Germans in those days were driving behind their lines and that a group of Belgian officers were discovered to be Germans by the French and shot.

Another one of those "I didn't know that before"s. I assume they were assigned the same sort of objectives as the WW2 German spies during the Battle of the Bulge and create confusion behind Entente lines as well as report what they could when they could.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 20:36.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.