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American Age of Discovery, Colonization, Revolution, & Expansion Military history of North America. .

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  #241  
Old 26 Sep 17, 05:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
Mainstream academia disagrees with you. Many religious texts speak of historical personalities. You don't have to believe in religion to believe in history.
But.....The people who wrote those texts were aware of the existence of these historic personalities because they were all written well after the alleged fact.
What better way to introduce a bit of legitimacy to a text than to name drop known historic figures?
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  #242  
Old 26 Sep 17, 12:33
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Banishment, ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
In these pol-correct times of course there are people who don't like it when films show true reality..
It's an undisputed fact that some Indian tribes banished members for various reasons, even Indian websites like this one admit it-

"When a tribal member was banished, it amounted to a death sentence; survival depended on support from the tribe working together. On one’s own, a person was exposed to the elements, wild life and warring, rival tribes."
https://indiancountrymedianetwork.co...al-banishment/

... was NOT intentionally leaving the "old and infirm out to die of cold and starvation", the elderly were revered in the cultures of First Nations, as they still are today. Banishment was a disciplinary measure, used for the incorrigible.


The quote you provided, so disingenuously, actually points this out when placed in context:

For hundreds of years Native Americans have fought colonization and banishment from their own lands. Now, in an ironic twist, some Native Americans are being banished from their reservations back to these same stolen lands in an attempt to address problems with violence and crime.

Tribal banishment is not new, but it appears to be gaining renewed attention because of tribes’ use of the practice to deal with contemporary issues.

In early tribal communities banishment was seldom used. A value that is shared by many Native communities includes staying out of others’ business and offering your opinion on a subject only when asked. This value allowed for peace among the tribal members.

According to our tribal elders, there was no drug use or abuse, because drugs and alcohol were introduced to Native people by Europeans. Child abuse was very rare because parenting was shared by many members and children were treated as sacred gifts from the creator. Domestic violence was a problem only on occasion. If a situation wasn’t resolved, a relative or often a trusted elder was sent to speak to the offender and harmony was usually restored. If the situation continued unresolved then, banishment was used.

When a tribal member was banished, it amounted to a death sentence; survival depended on support from the tribe working together. On one’s own, a person was exposed to the elements, wild life and warring, rival tribes.


https://indiancountrymedianetwork.co...al-banishment/


This is in a word, clueless:
Quote:
PS- We know not all indians were heathen savages, for example Tonto and the Lone Ranger were great mates, and in fact Tonto was one of my boyhood heroes, I remember in one episode he was trapped in quicksand and slowly sinking, but he just calmly stayed still and silent instead of panicking, waiting for the LR to arrive and rescue him.
I swore then that if ever I was trapped in quicksand I'd be like him and stay kool..
Tonto? Seriously? Here you go, enjoy your "Indian" ...

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  #243  
Old 26 Sep 17, 15:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flash View Post
But.....The people who wrote those texts were aware of the existence of these historic personalities because they were all written well after the alleged fact.
What better way to introduce a bit of legitimacy to a text than to name drop known historic figures?
The "written long after the fact" bit is highly disputable and relies heavily on the "assuming absence of evidence is evidence of absence" fallacy. It is based on the earliest copies that have been found which by itself is not evidence that copies did not exist prior to that point.

The truth is that while we don't know precisely when each book was written, there are historical clues which give us an idea. I have referenced Hebrews, a book that would never have been written after the sack of Jerusalem because it would be pointless then. That alone clues us into Paul's letters being contemporary works and not something scratched out decades or centuries later. The theological issues debated in scripture strongly point to these works being composed while Jerusalem was still the center of Jewish culture and a strong divide existed between jewish and gentile converts - issues that would not need addressing even a few decades later. These hints point to the writings now consolidated in the NT being contemporary and not something put together many years past. Their teachings would be irrelevant then.

As Jesus' movement started in Judea then fanned outward after his death - either by his posthumous decree or as a result of Jewish persecution depending on your beliefs - there would be no need to address a schism of gentile and Jewish converts prior to 33 AD and as the sack of Jerusalem put Jewish culture into diaspora after 70 AD Jewish and gentile Christians would no longer be crowded in and under cultural tension. Therefore the teachings of NT scriptures were most likely composed in between that time period as they were addressed to that audience. Questions like "should you be circumcised before being baptized" and "can you eat "unclean" food" are topics irrelevant to Christianity by 100 AD.

And they do name drop historic figures. Several in fact.
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  #244  
Old 27 Sep 17, 03:50
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Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
.. Banishment was a disciplinary measure, used for the incorrigible..
Nevertheless we saw with our own eyes that scene in 'A Man Called Horse' where an old Indian woman was slung out of the Sioux tribe to die in the cold.
The film had plenty of Sioux advisers, heck some even had roles as actors, so if that scene was make-believe fiction, why didn't they raise a stink and refuse to work on the film?
Below:Film end credits-

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  #245  
Old 27 Sep 17, 07:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flash View Post
But.....The people who wrote those texts were aware of the existence of these historic personalities because they were all written well after the alleged fact.
What better way to introduce a bit of legitimacy to a text than to name drop known historic figures?
Regarding the New Testament, a young boy of Jewish/Roman citizenship named Saul was alive at the same time as Jesus, and after Jesus's death he grew up to be a bounty hunter on the payroll of the snooty priests, rounding up Christians for punishment and execution.
Later he became a Christian himself, changed his name to Paul and wrote great chunks of the New T and took big hassle as he went around spreading the word, so his street cred as an eyewitness is pretty good and I see no reason to doubt what he wrote..




PS- Later this great cathedral in London was named after him, and incidentally notice the tents pitched alongside it by 'Occupy London' protesters, I wonder if they knew that Paul's family business was tentmaking, and that he was just as much against establishment corruption as they are?..
Paul wrote-
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil.." (Ephesians 6:12)


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  #246  
Old 30 Sep 17, 15:31
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You just ...

... don't get it, do you?

Quote:
Nevertheless we saw with our own eyes that scene in 'A Man Called Horse' where an old Indian woman was slung out of the Sioux tribe to die in the cold.

What you saw with your own eyes, was the vision of Director Elliot Hersh Silverstein, of Boston, a man who didn't even bother to read the short story by Dorothy M. Johnson that movie was to be based upon; he just "winged it", the movie has no basis in First Nations fact or authenticity.


"When A Man Called Horse shows an elderly Sioux woman abandoned and left to die in the snow ..., Silverstein believed that such an event might be possible for a people who struggled to survive in the wilderness as their food supply dwindled over time. "It's only savage if you view it from a Judeo-Christian point of view," he said. "But Indians were only obeying the law of survival."

Not a tough call here, Silverstein was wrong. Russell Means, a Lakota Sioux and National Director of the American Indian Movement (AIM) was infuriated by this particular scene; First Nations people revere their elders, they don't leave them out in the snow, they share what they have when times are tough, simple.

Quote:
The film had plenty of Sioux advisers, heck some even had roles as actors, so if that scene was make-believe fiction, why didn't they raise a stink and refuse to work on the film?
Below:Film end credits-

The actors? The names you provided from the screen still belong to extras, out to make a few bucks, the main Sioux speaking roles are as follows:

Dame Judith Anderson, as Buffalo Cow Head - Australian-born prominent British actress
Corinna Tsopei, as Running Deer - Miss Universe 1964, from Greece (when Buffy Saite-Marie passed)
Manu Tupou, as Yellow Hand - Fijian
Lina Marín, as Thorn Rose - prominent Mexican actress, movie was filmed in Mexico
Iron Eyes Cody, as Medicine man - A "Professional" Indian, born Espera Oscar de Corti to an Italian-American family.

The producers of the movie hired Clyde Dollar, the Rosebud Sioux's resident historian, as the movie's technical consultant, then the director i.e. Silverstein, disregarded anything he said.

"These blatant errors, Dollar warned, could "jeopardize any claim to fame as 'historically authentic' that A Man Called Horse might make." But Silverstein pointed out that although historical fact was the basis of the movie, its primary goal was entertainment."

"AIM charged that Hollywood manipulated Indians by appearing to seek authenticity and buying their services."


This is the problem; fools that are unfamiliar with First Nations people see words like "Museums, Libraries, Warriors" in the movie credits, and assume what they're seeing is authentic. You aren't a fool though, right? Yet you've obviously been fooled as well; in terms of authenticity, "A Man Called Horse" is garbage.

Incidentally, Russell Means starred in the 1992 movie "The Last of the Mohicans" as Chingachgook, a film based on a book of the same name by James Fenimore Cooper, that was a work of fiction, built around actual historical events. The difference between this movie and "A Man Called Horse" is, First Nations actors fill the roles of First Nations people, and the movie embraced the book and makes no pretensions regarding authenticity.

Quotes in italics above are from, "Making the White Man's Indian: Native Americans and Hollywood Movies", by Angela Aleiss.

Quote:
A Man Called Horse. 1970. National General Pictures. Directed by Elliot Silverstein. The first film of a trilogy that depicted the life of an Englishman among his adopted Sioux tribe. Although it was billed as the most accurate movie depiction of Sioux tribal customs, the director filled the screen with fabricated sensational and revolting rituals of the rites of passage. The formula must have worked. The public devoured it in several sequels even before the advent of New Agers.

"Hollywood's Indian: The Portrayal of the Native American in Film", by Peter C. Rollins, John E. O'Connor
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  #247  
Old 01 Oct 17, 08:27
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Poor Old Spike quote- "..we saw with our own eyes that scene in 'A Man Called Horse' where an old Indian woman was slung out of the Sioux tribe to die in the cold."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
... don't get it, do you?..the movie has no basis in First Nations fact or authenticity...
No offence mate but you're flogging a dead horse
I think you might have fallen victim to modern lefty pol-correct propaganda which tries to whitewash history, ban flags and tear down statues.
Atrocities by some (but not all) Indian tribes are a well-known historical fact, for example I could post photos of innocent settlers riddled with arrows, and to his credit even Kevin Costner in 'Dances with Wolves' depicts a harmless mule-driver getting it (below)-


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  #248  
Old 01 Oct 17, 13:45
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Er, no ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
Poor Old Spike quote- "..we saw with our own eyes that scene in 'A Man Called Horse' where an old Indian woman was slung out of the Sioux tribe to die in the cold."



No offence mate but you're flogging a dead horse
I think you might have fallen victim to modern lefty pol-correct propaganda which tries to whitewash history, ban flags and tear down statues.
Atrocities by some (but not all) Indian tribes are a well-known historical fact, for example I could post photos of innocent settlers riddled with arrows, and to his credit even Kevin Costner in 'Dances with Wolves' depicts a harmless mule-driver getting it (below)-

... my issue was with this quote, which you clung to, to ridiculous lengths, that scene from the director's imagination provoked anger because it depicted First Nations peoples disrespecting the insular family, leaving their elders to die, which was bullshite.

Quote:
Some heathen Indian tribes used to sling their old and infirm out to die of cold and starvation (top pic) because they regarded them as useless mouths to feed, but English Lord John Morgan in 'A Man Called Horse' (bottom pic) tells his adopted mother- "Don't worry luv, I'll be your son and won't let that happen to youi"
You've fallen into the "Hollywood Indian" depiction of First Nations people, all you've done throughout this whole discussion is accept it as truth. Even "the innocent settlers riddled with arrows, ... a harmless mule-driver getting it.", you mention are "whitewashing".

The truth is much worse, FN peoples practiced brutal "retributive justice". Make no mistake, when they were in conflict with enemies, often ancestral/hereditary because of their retributive nature; unimaginable physical and psychological cruelties, i.e. mutilating the dead and dying, taking captives, ritualistic torture & cannibalism, etc. were the norm in most cases.

Since you get your history from the screen, I offer you a snippet from "Canada: A People's History, a 17-episode, 32-hour documentary television series on the history of Canada. It first aired on CBC Television from October 2000 to November 2001."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada...le%27s_History

The first episode, "When the World Began ..." 15000 BC to 1800 AD, is some 1:48:00 minutes long, but starting at 33:05 you'll see a section titled "War", which is pre-contact. The series had FN input and participation, was done on the cheap, sanitized for network TV, but it's clear and you'll get the general idea; a Wendat (Huron) warrior captures a Haudenosaunee warrior of the Iroquois Confederacy, in Huronia (note, both are Iroquoian peoples):



On a personal level, my mother's family is Algonquin, I have Status Indian uncles, cousins etc., I spent 6 1/2 years policing Oji-Cree and Algonquin First Nations, spent time with elders, and the sweatlodge, etc., I've also experienced gov't "whitewashing" first hand. Also, Hélène Desportes, widely acknowledged as the first white child born in Canada, is my Great (9 Greats) Grandmother, on my father's side, and I can tell you, I've spent a great deal of time studying FN's and early North America, not just watching movies...

I'm no "victim to modern lefty pol-correct propaganda" - I KNOW, first hand in many instances, what I'm talking about. You, on the other hand, have been continually fooled into flogging Hollywood's dead horse
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  #249  
Old 01 Oct 17, 14:06
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The very fact that he cites movies as history sources has me facepalming.

It does have me thinking he might be a troll. I'm not sure if anyone would truly be that thick. Saying that for attention sounds more plausible.
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  #250  
Old 01 Oct 17, 16:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmat View Post
...it depicted First Nations peoples disrespecting the insular family, leaving their elders to die, which was bullshite.
You're part Indian yourself mate, so of course you'd say that..
We could go on trading quotes like a tennis match, for example I just found this pol-correct one which claims the elderly "voluntarily" banished themselves, haha!-
"Old people voluntarily committed exposure (wandered off to die), as the tribe couldn't afford hangers-on."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebit...cansrev2.shtml


Various tribes had different traditions and customs of course, some were relatively civilised (like Tonto) and some were not, so if you're saying ALL tribes were squeaky-clean, it just won't wash!

PS- Chief Seattle used captured enemy as slaves, wonder if the Left will topple his statue in Seattle like they're toppling other slave-owners statues..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Seattle

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  #251  
Old 01 Oct 17, 18:19
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Good point ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirateship1982 View Post
The very fact that he cites movies as history sources has me facepalming.

It does have me thinking he might be a troll. I'm not sure if anyone would truly be that thick. Saying that for attention sounds more plausible.
... but I should mention that I've come across this sort of person from the UK before. There's a small but distinct demographic that extols the virtues of the American West; they voraciously read Dusters, buy Country & Western records, wear gaudy leather cowboy style boots, Stetsons, bandannas and they just soak up shows like "The Rifleman", "Bonanza", movies like "A Man Called Horse" and "Dances With Wolves", and true life historical characters like Kid Shelleen, Bronco Billy Anderson and Tonto; it's like a Western Underground in Britain.

I once saw a documentary on the phenomenon, it was frightening; good thing these delusional anachronists are a small minority. This British Pathé piece shows a Dude Ranch in Sussex, where such Wild West infatuants and old spikes can get their tumble weed fix close to home:




There's a fine line between a troll, and an idiot.
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Old 01 Oct 17, 18:22
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I could post photos of innocent settlers riddled with arrows,
Go on, then..
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  #253  
Old 02 Oct 17, 08:24
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Guys, guys, leave that dead horse alone!
Just google something like "red indian atrocities" and a bunch of hits will come up (below) that show the indians weren't all sweetness and light..




As for you calling me "delusional" and "a troll", you speak with forked tongues..

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Old 02 Oct 17, 08:33
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Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
Guys, guys, leave that dead horse alone!
Just google something like "red indian atrocities"
Ah, the magic of google

I tried with "Smurf atrocities" and look at this ...

https://www.google.be/search?q=Smurf...w=1670&bih=835
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Old 02 Oct 17, 09:03
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Posts: 1,330
Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowygerry View Post
Ah, the magic of google
I tried with "Smurf atrocities" and look at this ...
https://www.google.be/search?q=Smurf...w=1670&bih=835
I'd rather have a Smurf knocking my door than Geronimo, Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons..
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