HistoryNet.com RSS
ArmchairGeneral.com RSS

HistoryNet.com Articles
America's Civil War
American History
Aviation History
Civil War Times
MHQ
Military History
Vietnam
Wild West
World War II

ACG Online
ACG Magazine
Stuff We Like
War College
History News
Tactics 101
Carlo D'Este
Books

ACG Gaming
Boardgames
PC Game Reviews

ACG Network
Contact Us
Our Newsletter
Meet Our Staff
Advertise With Us

Sites We Support
HistoryNet.com
StreamHistory.com
Once A Marine
The Art of Battle
Game Squad
Mil. History Podcast
Russian Army - WW2
Achtung Panzer!
Mil History Online

Go Back   Armchair General and HistoryNet >> The Best Forums in History > Historical Events & Eras > World War II

Notices and Announcements

World War II Discuss WW2. .

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 01 Oct 17, 11:27
ljadw's Avatar
ljadw ljadw is online now
General of the Forums
Belgium
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: zottegem
Posts: 14,300
ljadw gives and gets respect [800]
ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800]
about the existing and new divisions, let's look to what happened on the PzD :

10 and 15 Pz were destroyed in Tunesia and not rebuilt.

18 Pz was deactivated in september 1943

22 Pz was merged with 23 Pz in april 1943

27 Pz was disbanded in april 1943


There were already batallions and even divisions disbanded in the winter of 41/42 .(239 ID )

The claim that Hitler opposed the disbandment of existing divisions and demanded always new divisions, is not correct .
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08 Oct 17, 16:58
NagaSadow's Avatar
NagaSadow NagaSadow is offline
Sergeant Major
Germany
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Germania Incognita
Posts: 361
NagaSadow is on the path to success [1-99] NagaSadow is on the path to success [1-99] NagaSadow is on the path to success [1-99] NagaSadow is on the path to success [1-99] NagaSadow is on the path to success [1-99] NagaSadow is on the path to success [1-99]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
From Panzerwaffe vol.2, Anderson




This is an interesting request that makes sense to me. I had always wondered why the Germans never had an offensive army in reserve in the summer of 1944. Of course, Guderian never got his request- not enough forces available.
Guderian included the divisions which he planned to use:
West:
2. Pz.Div. (replaced by 9. Pz.Div.)
12. SS-Pz.Div. (10. Pz.Div.)

South
26. Pz.Div. (X. Inf.Div.)
29. Pz.Gren.Div. (X. Inf.Div.)

East
1. Pz.Div.
6. Pz.Div.
16. Pz.Div.
(replaced by 16. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. and 4. SS-Pol.Pz.Gren.Div.)
Pz.Gren.Div. Feldherrnhalle (replaced by Estonian and/or Latvian units)


On the 27th Hitler agreed to create a reserve of 11 mobile divisions until mid-June 1944:
2. Pz.Div.
2. SS-Pz.Div.
3. Pz.Gren.Div.
15. Pz.Gren.Div.
4. Pz.Div.
5. Pz.Div.
Pz.Gren.Div. Feldherrnhalle
1. Pz.Div.
16. Pz.Div.
(9. SS-Pz.Div.)
(10. SS-Pz.Div.)

1. SS-Pz.Div., 12. SS-Pz.Div., 9. Pz.Div., 10. Pz.Div., 21. Pz.Div., 116. Pz.Div., 17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. and Pz.Lehr-Div. were to remain in the West.
The plan called for a rest period until mid June 1944 when they were to be employed en masse.
In early April 1944 Hitler ordered all surplus truck production to was to be delivered to the aforementioned 11 divisions.
In late April the composition of the mobile reserve had changed to:
2. Pz.Div.
2. SS-Pz.Div.
I. SS-Pz.K. with 1. SS-Pz.Div. and 12. SS-Pz.Div.
3. Pz.Gren.Div.
15. Pz.Gren.Div.
8. Pz.Div.
19. Pz.Div.
9. SS-Pz.Div.
10. SS-Pz.Div.
4. Pz.Div.
5. Pz.Div.
Pz.Gren.Div. Feldherrnhalle
and 10x Inf.Div.
s.Pz.Abt. 504, 506, 510
s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 653, 654, 1x Hornissen/Nashorn-btl.
Stu.Pz.Abt. 216, 217
fully refreshed and replenished until 15th June 1944.

On 30th May 1944 Guderian (with Model) decided that Gen.d.Pz.Tr. Eberbach would form a temporary staff to direct and oversee the assembly and final training of the reserve in the East.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09 Oct 17, 15:26
ljadw's Avatar
ljadw ljadw is online now
General of the Forums
Belgium
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: zottegem
Posts: 14,300
ljadw gives and gets respect [800]
ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800]
Quote:
Originally Posted by NagaSadow View Post
Guderian included the divisions which he planned to use:
West:
2. Pz.Div. (replaced by 9. Pz.Div.)
12. SS-Pz.Div. (10. Pz.Div.)

South
26. Pz.Div. (X. Inf.Div.)
29. Pz.Gren.Div. (X. Inf.Div.)

East
1. Pz.Div.
6. Pz.Div.
16. Pz.Div.
(replaced by 16. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. and 4. SS-Pol.Pz.Gren.Div.)
Pz.Gren.Div. Feldherrnhalle (replaced by Estonian and/or Latvian units)


On the 27th Hitler agreed to create a reserve of 11 mobile divisions until mid-June 1944:
2. Pz.Div.
2. SS-Pz.Div.
3. Pz.Gren.Div.
15. Pz.Gren.Div.
4. Pz.Div.
5. Pz.Div.
Pz.Gren.Div. Feldherrnhalle
1. Pz.Div.
16. Pz.Div.
(9. SS-Pz.Div.)
(10. SS-Pz.Div.)

1. SS-Pz.Div., 12. SS-Pz.Div., 9. Pz.Div., 10. Pz.Div., 21. Pz.Div., 116. Pz.Div., 17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. and Pz.Lehr-Div. were to remain in the West.
The plan called for a rest period until mid June 1944 when they were to be employed en masse.
In early April 1944 Hitler ordered all surplus truck production to was to be delivered to the aforementioned 11 divisions.
In late April the composition of the mobile reserve had changed to:
2. Pz.Div.
2. SS-Pz.Div.
I. SS-Pz.K. with 1. SS-Pz.Div. and 12. SS-Pz.Div.
3. Pz.Gren.Div.
15. Pz.Gren.Div.
8. Pz.Div.
19. Pz.Div.
9. SS-Pz.Div.
10. SS-Pz.Div.
4. Pz.Div.
5. Pz.Div.
Pz.Gren.Div. Feldherrnhalle
and 10x Inf.Div.
s.Pz.Abt. 504, 506, 510
s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 653, 654, 1x Hornissen/Nashorn-btl.
Stu.Pz.Abt. 216, 217
fully refreshed and replenished until 15th June 1944.

On 30th May 1944 Guderian (with Model) decided that Gen.d.Pz.Tr. Eberbach would form a temporary staff to direct and oversee the assembly and final training of the reserve in the East.
0n june 6 1944 of those in the West ,1SS,9,10, 116 Pz were not operational .

On june 15, 9 and 10 SS were not fully refreshed and replenished .
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12 Oct 17, 04:48
Artyom_A's Avatar
Artyom_A Artyom_A is offline
Lieutenant General
Russia
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Moscow
Posts: 3,086
Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300]
By 6.44 10 Panzerdivision simply ceased to exist. That must be 11 PzD, I guess.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12 Oct 17, 05:16
Poor Old Spike's Avatar
Poor Old Spike Poor Old Spike is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
UK
ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: England
Posts: 1,301
Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100] Poor Old Spike has demonstrated strength of character [100]
This map from Chester Wilmot's 'The Struggle for Europe' shows that on June 6th 1944 there were 163 German Divs on the Eastern Front and 133 in the West, so if each of those divs contributed a tiny fraction of their strength to form a Reserve I'm sure it could have been done-

Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links

  #21  
Old 12 Oct 17, 06:26
Michele's Avatar
Michele Michele is offline
General of the Forums
Italy
Most Significant/Influential Tank Campaign Most Significant/Influential Fighter Campaign Most Significant/Influential Multi-Role Aircraft C Greatest/Best Tank of WW2 Campaign 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Udine
Posts: 6,604
Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100]
Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100] Michele is a pillar of the community [1100]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
This map from Chester Wilmot's 'The Struggle for Europe' shows that on June 6th 1944 there were 163 German Divs on the Eastern Front and 133 in the West, so if each of those divs contributed a tiny fraction of their strength to form a Reserve I'm sure it could have been done-
Well, probably. Now, in two weeks the Soviets are going to launch Bagration, and they will cut through the German front like a hot knife into butter. The entire Army Group Center is going to cease to exist, German losses will amount to some 450,000 (historians don't agree on an exact figure).
So let's say the Germans subtract 5% from the 163 divisions in the East. That's 8 divisions in reserve, say in central position in Germany. Meaning 8 infantry divisions that cannot be quickly dispatched anywhere, either with their own transportation or with the shambles that the railways already are.
And at the same time, the job of the Soviets in the East, which we know is already going to be a smashing success, is made 5% easier.
__________________
Michele

Last edited by Michele; 12 Oct 17 at 09:03..
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12 Oct 17, 06:35
R.N. Armstrong's Avatar
R.N. Armstrong R.N. Armstrong is offline
ACG Author
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Plainview
Posts: 8,305
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
This map from Chester Wilmot's 'The Struggle for Europe' shows that on June 6th 1944 there were 163 German Divs on the Eastern Front and 133 in the West, so if each of those divs contributed a tiny fraction of their strength to form a Reserve I'm sure it could have been done-

Your proposal raises a few questions:

What was the strength of the units spread around Eastern and Western Europe? [Remember Army Group Center was destroyed in June 1944; Northern Ukraine Group in July 1944. I recall the 1st and 8th Panzer Divisions in the July defensive fight around Lvov had only a dozen tanks each.]

What about support units for the tiny fractions from each division?

And from where would upper echelon support units come from for newly formed divisions, corps, armies?

Where would the command and staffs come from to lead the newly formed brigades, divisions, corps, armies?

How much rail, command and control, coordination, assembly points would be necessary to pull the spread of tiny fractions into larger fighting units?

Do you think unit commanders would give up their best soldiers, commanders, equipment and robust units? [I think you would get walking wounded, and/or vehicles that could not be repaired and required being towed....]
__________________
Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

Last edited by R.N. Armstrong; 12 Oct 17 at 17:25..
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12 Oct 17, 07:16
ljadw's Avatar
ljadw ljadw is online now
General of the Forums
Belgium
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: zottegem
Posts: 14,300
ljadw gives and gets respect [800]
ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800]
From The Dupuy Institute

Tank status in the East on 31 may 1944

AGN : 1 PzD and 1 PGD : 91 operational tanks and 241 operational StuG

AGC : 2 PzD and 2 PGD : 85 operational tanks and 404 operational StuG

AGNU : 9 PzD and 1 PzGD:830 operational tanks and 480 operational StuG

AGSU : 5 PzD and 2 PzGD : 186 operational tanks and 194 operational StuG

Total : 17 PzD and 6 PzGD :1192 tanks and 1319 StuG

tanks /STuG in repair/assigned,en route are not included .

Figures given by Richard Anderson .

The average PzD had some 70 tanks, in june 1941 some 200 .

Several of these divisions were not operational, the others were tied in the east, 2 were going in june to the west .

Guderian's request was impossible .
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12 Oct 17, 07:19
ljadw's Avatar
ljadw ljadw is online now
General of the Forums
Belgium
5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: zottegem
Posts: 14,300
ljadw gives and gets respect [800]
ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800] ljadw gives and gets respect [800]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Old Spike View Post
This map from Chester Wilmot's 'The Struggle for Europe' shows that on June 6th 1944 there were 163 German Divs on the Eastern Front and 133 in the West, so if each of those divs contributed a tiny fraction of their strength to form a Reserve I'm sure it could have been done-

Not 133 in the west, but 133 elsewhere : west, Norway, Italy, Balkans and Germany.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12 Oct 17, 09:15
R.N. Armstrong's Avatar
R.N. Armstrong R.N. Armstrong is offline
ACG Author
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Plainview
Posts: 8,305
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
Of course, we all know how dynamic strength numbers can be at the 'sharp end'. Jentz in his Panzer Truppen vol 2 has a table of panzer Units in the East on 31 May 1944. He notes, "...some were Panzer-Divisions in name only because they possessed less than two full Panzer-Kompanien, with no replacements promised in the near future."

In total, his strength chart show total available 176 StuG (148 opn'l), 603 PzIV (484 opn'l), 313 PzV (238 opn'l) and 298 PzVI (233 opn'l).

Specifically for my previous example:

1st Pz Div --34 PzIV (33 opn'l), 26 PzV (23 opn'l); no StuG or PzVI

8th Pz Div --11 PzIV (10 opn'l), 80 PzV (73 opn'l); no StuG or PzVI

TBC
__________________
Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

Last edited by R.N. Armstrong; 12 Oct 17 at 17:23..
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12 Oct 17, 09:20
R.N. Armstrong's Avatar
R.N. Armstrong R.N. Armstrong is offline
ACG Author
United_States
Distinguished Service Award ACG Ten Year Service Award 5 Year Service Ribbon 
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Plainview
Posts: 8,305
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900] R.N. Armstrong has earned the respect of all [900]
From the XXXXVIII PzK telephone log within its operations record for 16 Jul 1944, the corps CofS (von Mellenthin) reports to the corps Cdr (Balck) at 1132 hrs the status of 1st Pz and 8th Pz Divs entering the battle east of Lvov:

1st PzD -- 12 Pz, 10 Assault guns and 4 elephants

8th PzD -- 30 PzVI, 10 PzV, 15 assault guns and 4 Elephants.

Prior to chopping the two panzer divisions to the 48th PzK, they had been held in reserve in the 3rd PzK, Northern Ukraine Army Group.
__________________
Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12 Oct 17, 15:17
Artyom_A's Avatar
Artyom_A Artyom_A is offline
Lieutenant General
Russia
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Moscow
Posts: 3,086
Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300] Artyom_A is on a distinguished road [300]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michele View Post
So let's say the Germans subtract 5% from the 163 divisions in the East. That's 8 divisions in reserve, say in central position in Germany.
As I understand the idea was to rebuild the Eastern Front division where they were instead of subtracting them, as suggested by
Quote:
On 30th May 1944 Guderian (with Model) decided that Gen.d.Pz.Tr. Eberbach would form a temporary staff to direct and oversee the assembly and final training of the reserve in the East.
Also of the divisions mentioned 4, 5 and 8 PzD, 9 and 10 SS PzD stayed on the EF by mid-June.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Please bookmark this thread if you enjoyed it!


Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:18.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.