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Weapons of War The machinery of warfare. .

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  #16  
Old 05 Aug 17, 15:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
No read the article. The RM version caries 12 men - an assault craft.
thanks all replies--and MarkV for polite, civilized response
a lot of members would've added some ''hateful'' words, which degrades the forum
..I see..12
very odd choice as per my points
..going to take a lot of them to bring in a lot of troops --for an assualt...another negative
AAV7 holds about 25 Marines..they are very slow though
but once they get to land--fast and armored
...the AAVs are not exactly silent but they don't have a skirt, huge fans, and they have an extremely low silhouette....most of it is in the water
..seems like a skinny terrorist with an AK could ''easily'' take out an ACV, a lot easier than an AAV


so they are not mainly for assault purposes
I'm trying to think of a unsecured area scenario they would be used on
anyone have any ideas?
..they can come fast after secured area--but still only 12?

Last edited by Moulin; 05 Aug 17 at 16:01..
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  #17  
Old 05 Aug 17, 21:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
No read the article. The RM version caries 12 men - an assault craft.
Hence my previous remarks. lcm1
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  #18  
Old 06 Aug 17, 06:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moulin View Post
thanks all replies--and MarkV for polite, civilized response
a lot of members would've added some ''hateful'' words, which degrades the forum
..I see..12
very odd choice as per my points
..going to take a lot of them to bring in a lot of troops --for an assualt...another negative
AAV7 holds about 25 Marines..they are very slow though
but once they get to land--fast and armored
...the AAVs are not exactly silent but they don't have a skirt, huge fans, and they have an extremely low silhouette....most of it is in the water
..seems like a skinny terrorist with an AK could ''easily'' take out an ACV, a lot easier than an AAV


so they are not mainly for assault purposes
I'm trying to think of a unsecured area scenario they would be used on
anyone have any ideas?
..they can come fast after secured area--but still only 12?
As the RN put it

Quote:
539 is the UKs only self-supporting and organised assault squadron part of 3 Commando Brigade Royal Marines. Unlike other assault squadrons which whose focus is on amphibious assault and mass deployment from ships such as HMS Bulwark, 539s emphasis is on smaller scale raiding and river and river estuary operations.
They're intended for small scale in and out missions done in a hurry
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  #19  
Old 06 Aug 17, 09:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkV View Post
As the RN put it



They're intended for small scale in and out missions done in a hurry
thanks for reply
I'm sure there are some instances they are worthwhile
...one would be bypassing strong points to get behind the enemy--and the speed can offset the negatives
...raids on non-secured/low security buildings/bases/etc
...I did read of how they were using the ACV in the Iraq war and it does seem logical for riverine ops, just like Vietnam, where water depths are hazardous
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  #20  
Old 19 Aug 17, 18:23
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I hope Trump lets the U.S. Navy develop a new generation of air cushioned landing craft. Also, I think the U.S.M.C. should restart the EFV program. I don't she the ACV 1.1 really replacing the AAV7. It seem better suited to replacing the LAV-25.
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  #21  
Old 20 Aug 17, 10:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava188 View Post
I hope Trump lets the U.S. Navy develop a new generation of air cushioned landing craft. Also, I think the U.S.M.C. should restart the EFV program. I don't she the ACV 1.1 really replacing the AAV7. It seem better suited to replacing the LAV-25.
is there a need for the EFV? the choppers and Ospreys can land the force behind the enemy
..AAVs were developed from vehicles before choppers were used to deploy troops....the old alligator WW2 beach landing craft .....?
..I've been in AAVs many times.....the EFV is faster--that's a big plus
it was also for keeping the amphibious ships safer by keeping them out of range.....but---
1. how far out does the ship have to be to be safe from anti-ship missiles, fast attack craft, etc?? other attacks?
....a. would that distance be too far and offset the advantages of the EFV?
yes, the distance would be too far

over the horizon assaults are great ... the USMC used to have boat companies using outboard rubber boats
..the EFVs could land 'many' troops fast from far away....
but you would always want to land the troops unopposed, or against minimum defenses
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  #22  
Old 20 Aug 17, 11:02
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While the LCAC's (air cushion) are faster than the LCM's, the LCM's cream them on load capacity and in the long run can deliver far more equipment and material to a beachhead than air cushion craft can.
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  #23  
Old 20 Aug 17, 11:35
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Whenever possible you want to land unopposed. The EFV has role in an amphibious assault because beach defenses are more often than not relegated to MGs, the occasional ATGM, and infantry, maybe with mines or IEDs if there's time and the landing sites are canalized enough.

The issue with using Ospreys is that the entire complement of Ospreys can only land maybe a company at a time. And the Ospreys don't bring in organic heavy weapons in those drops. Amphibious armored vehicles bring in heavy weapons to the beach, along with armor that's proof against the most common threats (Machine Guns). Ospreys are also far more sensitive to weather conditions than Amtracks. Amtracks would actually prefer to go ashore in heavy fog during a driving rain.

Ideally what you want is to hit a beach with only minimal defenses with a simultaneous battalion landing on Amtracks and a Vertical Envelopment by a company in Ospreys just behind the beach, pinning the defenders against their defenses and then rolling them up. Ideal situations are rare if they ever occur. Amtracks are more capable of dealing with less than ideal conditions than any rotary wing asset. 3 or 4 guys with SA7s can ruin the Osprey's day. 3 or 4 guys with ATGMs may or may not drop a couple of Amtracks before they hit the beach.

As for what distance you're 'safe' from threats to the ships? I'd say that the reasonable launch distance is one where the ships escorting destroyers and frigates have time to engage incoming threats like suicide boats and missiles. Sure you could theoretically engage ships from shore with missiles that have over 100nm of range....but at 50nm out the escorts would have time to spot, address, and counter the incoming threats.

Until you say that all amphibious operations are moot, and all opposed operations from ship to shore will be either RHIBs or Vertical, you need Amtracks of one form or another. And going with the other option means that an enemy can reasonably defend his shoreline with SAMs, MANPADs, and a few Machine Guns. By adding the additional threat, the enemy is required to respond with more defensive troops, more defensive preparations, and more assets like ATGMs, Artillery, etc. This means that any opposing country with a coastline must take more extensive and expensive measures to defend it, meaning that they have to either defend only a few areas leaving gaps, or fatally reduce their defenses elsewhere.

I doubt the Iraqis would have fielded such a large force to oppose Marines in GW1 if they were only a heliborne force.
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  #24  
Old 20 Aug 17, 12:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacCovert4 View Post
Whenever possible you want to land unopposed. The EFV has role in an amphibious assault because beach defenses are more often than not relegated to MGs, the occasional ATGM, and infantry, maybe with mines or IEDs if there's time and the landing sites are canalized enough.

The issue with using Ospreys is that the entire complement of Ospreys can only land maybe a company at a time. And the Ospreys don't bring in organic heavy weapons in those drops. Amphibious armored vehicles bring in heavy weapons to the beach, along with armor that's proof against the most common threats (Machine Guns). Ospreys are also far more sensitive to weather conditions than Amtracks. Amtracks would actually prefer to go ashore in heavy fog during a driving rain.

Ideally what you want is to hit a beach with only minimal defenses with a simultaneous battalion landing on Amtracks and a Vertical Envelopment by a company in Ospreys just behind the beach, pinning the defenders against their defenses and then rolling them up. Ideal situations are rare if they ever occur. Amtracks are more capable of dealing with less than ideal conditions than any rotary wing asset. 3 or 4 guys with SA7s can ruin the Osprey's day. 3 or 4 guys with ATGMs may or may not drop a couple of Amtracks before they hit the beach.

As for what distance you're 'safe' from threats to the ships? I'd say that the reasonable launch distance is one where the ships escorting destroyers and frigates have time to engage incoming threats like suicide boats and missiles. Sure you could theoretically engage ships from shore with missiles that have over 100nm of range....but at 50nm out the escorts would have time to spot, address, and counter the incoming threats.

Until you say that all amphibious operations are moot, and all opposed operations from ship to shore will be either RHIBs or Vertical, you need Amtracks of one form or another. And going with the other option means that an enemy can reasonably defend his shoreline with SAMs, MANPADs, and a few Machine Guns. By adding the additional threat, the enemy is required to respond with more defensive troops, more defensive preparations, and more assets like ATGMs, Artillery, etc. This means that any opposing country with a coastline must take more extensive and expensive measures to defend it, meaning that they have to either defend only a few areas leaving gaps, or fatally reduce their defenses elsewhere.

I doubt the Iraqis would have fielded such a large force to oppose Marines in GW1 if they were only a heliborne force.
sure, it's always good to hit the area with 2 forces....but if defenses are minimal, you can still use the AAVs, or just use choppers, Ospreys
..IIRC, they had problems landing with the AAVs in Grenada
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  #25  
Old 20 Aug 17, 17:59
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The Marines need to look at a tracked vehicle to replace the AAV-7 since tracked vehicle can cross rough terrain better than wheeled vehicles. So either the Marines restart work on the EFV without the high speed capabilities or develop a tracked variant of the Havoc.
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Old 20 Aug 17, 18:19
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Originally Posted by Merkava188 View Post
The Marines need to look at a tracked vehicle to replace the AAV-7 since tracked vehicle can cross rough terrain better than wheeled vehicles. So either the Marines restart work on the EFV without the high speed capabilities or develop a tracked variant of the Havoc.
we took AAVs over very rough ''trails'' ..if you didn't hold on, you would've been banged up
..I agree it should be tracked...they come from the sea, so they need to be able to cross coastal terrain...they can assault away from the built up harbor areas/etc
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  #27  
Old 30 Sep 17, 21:44
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I wonder how much the EFV would've cost without the high speed hydroplaning capabilities.
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